Message-ID: <CAOQ4uxhmA862ZPAXd=g3vKJAvwAdobAnB--7MqHV87Vmh0USFw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 21:51:29 +0200
From: Amir Goldstein <amir73il@...il.com>
To: Paul Lawrence <paullawrence@...gle.com>
Cc: Miklos Szeredi <miklos@...redi.hu>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org, Bernd Schubert <bernd.schubert@...tmail.fm>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v1 0/2] RFC: Extend fuse-passthrough to directories

On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 8:30 PM Paul Lawrence <paullawrence@...gle.com> wrote:
>
> > FUSE_CREATE already returns two out args.
> > How were you planning to extend it?
>
> Excellent point. However, FUSE_CREATE (and FUSE_TMPFILE) already has
> fuse_open_out as the second argument, so the backing_id can be passed
> in there. Does that sound acceptable? I'll admit that at first this
> seemed clunky to me, but the more I think about it, the more natural
> it seems - create is really an open, so it follows that paradigm, and
> the new paradigm is used only for FUSE_LOOKUP.
>

Yes, you are right. FUSE_CREATE already has backing_id anyway.

> FUSE_READDIRPLUS is harder, it seems to me. We would need to break ABI
> compatibility - I can't see any sane alternative. A clean way would be
> to have a FUSE_READDIR_PASSTHROUGH opcode. This implies that there's a
> flag FUSE_PASSTHROUGH_MASK covering all of this new functionality
> which would also enable this new opcode. (It could, alternatively,
> change the behavior of FUSE_READDIRPLUS but I suspect no one is going
> to like that idea.)

Let's leave readdirplus for the very end.
It's not very important for the first version IMO.

>
> Does this seem reasonable?

Yes. sounds good to me.

Thanks,
Amir.

>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 9:53 AM Amir Goldstein <amir73il@...il.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Jul 22, 2025 at 11:13 PM Paul Lawrence <paullawrence@...gle.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I spent a little time with these patches. I wrote my own to set the
> > > backing file at lookup time by adding an optional second out struct.
> >
> > FUSE_CREATE already returns two out args.
> > How were you planning to extend it?
> >
> > > Is there a reason we should not do this? It seems the most natural
> > > solution.
> > >
> > > After a while, I began to wonder if what I was planning was actually
> > > the same as your vision. I decided to jot down my thoughts to see if
> > > you agree with them. Also I was confused as to why you were adding the
> > > ability to set backing files to GETATTR.
> >
> > It is a demo. It demonstrates that passthrough can be set up sooner than
> > open time. It was not my intention to keep it this way.
> >
> > > So here are my notes.
> > >
> > > Design of fuse passthrough for all operations
> > >
> > > Goal:
> > >
> > > When a fuse filesystem implements a stacking filesystem over an
> > > underlying file system, and a significant fraction of the calls will
> > > simply be passed to the underlying file system, provide a mechanism to
> > > pass those calls through without going to user space. This is
> > > primarily to enhance performance, though it might simplify the daemon
> > > somewhat too.
> > >
> > > Current state:
> > >
> > > Currently passthrough allows a backing file to be set at file open
> > > time. If a backing file is set, all read/write operations will be
> > > forwarded to the backing file.
> > >
> > > Design:
> > >
> > > Add ability to set backing file on the found inode in response to a
> > > positive lookup. This file might be opened with O_PATH for performance
> > > reasons. The lookup api would be modified to have an optional second
> > > out struct that contains the backing file id. Note that we will use
> > > the backing file ioctl to create this id to remove any security
> > > concerns.
> > >
> > > The ioctl will also take a 64-bit integer to define which operations
> > > will be passed through, the operations mask. This will have one bit
> > > for each of the existing FUSE_OPERATIONS, at least the ones that act
> > > on inodes/files.
> > >
> > > Then when fuse fs is considering calling out to the daemon with an
> > > opcode, fuse fs will check if the inode has a backing file and mask.
> > > If it does, and the specific opcode bit is set, fuse fs will instead
> > > call out to a kernel function in backing.c that can perform that
> > > operation on the backing file correctly.
> > >
> > > Details:
> > >
> > > Question: Will it be possible to change the mask/backing file after
> > > the initial setting? My feeling is that it might well be useful to be
> > > able to set the mask, the file not so much. Situations would be (for
> > > example) a caching file system that turns off read forwarding once the
> > > whole file is downloaded.
> > >
> >
> > Generally, enabling passthrough from a point in time until the end of
> > inode lifetime is easier than turning it off, but also there are many
> > dependencies between passthrough ops and inode state so it will
> > require a lot of care to enable *some* operations mid inode lifetime.
> >
> > > FUSE_OPEN will, if the backing file has been set, reopen it as a file
> > > (not a path) if needed. This is whether or not FUSE_OPEN is passed
> > > through.
> > >
> > > If FUSE_OPEN is passed through, user space will not get the chance to
> > > assign a file handle ID to the opened file. It will still be possible
> > > to pass FUSE_READ etc to the daemon - the daemon will still have the
> > > node id and be able to read data based on that.
> > >
> >
> > Not sure I understand what you mean, but we do support per file opt-out of
> > passthrough with FOPEN_DIRECT_IO even when the inode is already
> > set up for passthrough.
> >
> > > FUSE_LOOKUP can return a 0 node id, but only if *all* operations on
> > > that node as marked as passthrough.
> >
> > Not sure why this is but I will be open to understanding.
> > Will need an elaborate design of the inode lifetime in this case.
> >
> > >
> > > Suggestion: During FUSE_LOOKUP, if FUSE_GETATTR is set in the mask,
> > > ignore the passed in attributes and read them from the backing file.
> >
> > My patches already implement that when GETATTR is in the mask.
> >
> > >
> > > Random, non-exhastive list of considerations:
> > >
> > > FUSE_FORGET can only be marked passthrough if the node id is 0.
> > >
> > > FUSE_CREATE returns a new node id and file handle. It would need the
> > > ability to set backing files.
> > >
> > > If FUSE_LOOKUP is marked for passthrough, then looked up inodes will
> > > be prepopulated with a backing O_PATH file and a mask will all bits
> > > set.
> > >
> > > FUSE_RENAME takes two nodes and names, and moves one to the other. If
> > > one is passthrough and one is not, there is no obvious way of
> > > performing a rename. Either fall back to copy/delete or return EXDEV
> >
> > Good question.
> >
> > My patches were meant to provide you the basic infrastructure to enter
> > this playground and show that you do not need backing dentry/inode
> > beyond what is already available.
> >
> > I hope this is enough for you to start experimenting and sending RFC patches
> > with design doc!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Amir.

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