Message-ID: <CANiq72=2VhHBZbTL7mdF9C+eBabft8rpP0_8FjxKi2d_2ZMbCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2025 22:57:51 +0200
From: Miguel Ojeda <miguel.ojeda.sandonis@...il.com>
To: Alexandre Courbot <acourbot@...dia.com>
Cc: John Hubbard <jhubbard@...dia.com>, Miguel Ojeda <ojeda@...nel.org>, 
	Alex Gaynor <alex.gaynor@...il.com>, Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@...il.com>, 
	Gary Guo <gary@...yguo.net>, Björn Roy Baron <bjorn3_gh@...tonmail.com>, 
	Benno Lossin <lossin@...nel.org>, Andreas Hindborg <a.hindborg@...nel.org>, 
	Alice Ryhl <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, Trevor Gross <tmgross@...ch.edu>, 
	Danilo Krummrich <dakr@...nel.org>, David Airlie <airlied@...il.com>, Simona Vetter <simona@...ll.ch>, 
	Maarten Lankhorst <maarten.lankhorst@...ux.intel.com>, Maxime Ripard <mripard@...nel.org>, 
	Thomas Zimmermann <tzimmermann@...e.de>, Alistair Popple <apopple@...dia.com>, 
	Joel Fernandes <joelagnelf@...dia.com>, Timur Tabi <ttabi@...dia.com>, rust-for-linux@...r.kernel.org, 
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, nouveau@...ts.freedesktop.org, 
	dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org
Subject: Re: Implicit panics (was: [PATCH v2 2/8] gpu: nova-core: firmware:
 add support for common firmware header)

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 3:55 PM Alexandre Courbot <acourbot@...dia.com> wrote:
>
> The only two options are either allowing user-space to crash the kernel
> through a module with a missing bound check, or letting it tamper with

So we are definitely not aiming to allow that on purpose, i.e. I know
you said "missing", but just to clarify: they would of course be
considered a bug, just like hitting similar facilities in C code.

(In general, if we get into the situation where we can actually crash
the kernel from userspace, that is a CVE with the current rules
(modulo exceptional cases, e.g. the recent discussion about debugging
tools, for instance), regardless of whether it was due to a Rust panic
or not.)

The Rust panic is, as you say, the last line of defense, attempting to
limit the damage. I think that is worth it for at least some users
that want it (like cloud providers) and some parts of the kernel.
Sometimes it can be worse, though, i.e. perhaps the OOB or the
overflow was not actually a "big issue" "in practice" for a particular
case.

I think it will likely depend on the kind of code we are talking about
-- not all panics are the same, and not all code is the same. For
random modules, for instance, yes, we should definitely prevent
developers from writing panics as much as possible (or not at all);
the same way we try to prevent them from writing unsafe code -- after
all, panicking operations and unsafe code are both an statement that
we are sure "something cannot happen".

So the more we prevent APIs that do not need to rely on panicking (nor
unsafe code) on drivers etc., the better.

I also think forcing to have no panics at all (i.e. globally) would
force us to handle way more truly impossible cases than C does
(unsafely so), which isn't great and has downsides too (increased
complexity, for one, which can also lead to more bugs). And we don't
want to go memory unsafe for all those either (I mean, it could be an
option, but I wouldn't recommend it, and it would still be a bug if
hit). So for certain cases panicking may be a reasonable option in
practice -- that is where I wanted us to get more experience to know
how we fare vs. C here and thus the data request.

It will also depend on what upstream Rust can give us (more on that
below). For instance, having an enforced way with carve-outs that need
to be annotated would at least make it stand out to reviewers and make
developers think thrice.

> Thanks, these are great directions to explore. I see that some thinking
> has already been done on this, do we have a bug or tracking issue so I
> can catch up with the discussions that have already taken place?

In general, I do my best to track this kind of thing in the issues
linked from issue #2 ("Rust features" in this case:
https://github.com/Rust-for-Linux/linux/issues/354), and you can see
some pointers for the overflow part. For no panics there is also an
entry for a long time, but I don't think there has been any "deep"
discussion on it -- I mean between Rust and the kernel (there are of
course discussions in upstream Rust, and there also have been in our
side in the mailing list). I just added a couple recent pointers, I
can look for more.

In that meeting I mentioned with them, I raised this a month or two
ago, and I did so today too, and mentioned that you wanted to discuss
it in LPC. If you (or e.g. someone from NVIDIA) have time to work on
this, including in upstream Rust (e.g. writing an RFC, implementing an
experiment...), then please let me know. They are open to the
possibility of having a Rust project goal for the next round on no
panics (2026H1), so it is a good chance to move things forward. We had
today a discussion on potential forms it could take (an attribute on a
function, guaranteed or not, escape hatches or not, lints, an enforced
comment, Klint, the report-and-continue feature...) and related
ongoing efforts (having a `nopanic` effect, `target_feature(enable
=`...).

I hope that helps, and thanks!

Cheers,
Miguel

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