Message-ID: <CAFTtA3Nxq0UmXcuN7jmQOiuTbrenKbR4ihH027ya1WWybgLq4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 07:30:08 -0500
From: Andy Chiu <andybnac@...il.com>
To: Deepak Gupta <debug@...osinc.com>
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	Aurelien Jarno <aurel32@...ian.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v19 00/27] riscv control-flow integrity for usermode

Hi Deepak,

On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 1:40 PM Deepak Gupta <debug@...osinc.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 08:36:11AM -0600, Paul Walmsley wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >On Thu, 31 Jul 2025, Deepak Gupta wrote:
> >
> >[ ... ]
> >
> >> vDSO related Opens (in the flux)
> >> =================================
> >>
> >> I am listing these opens for laying out plan and what to expect in future
> >> patch sets. And of course for the sake of discussion.
> >>
> >
> >[ ... ]
> >
> >> How many vDSOs
> >> ---------------
> >> Shadow stack instructions are carved out of zimop (may be operations) and if CPU
> >> doesn't implement zimop, they're illegal instructions. Kernel could be running on
> >> a CPU which may or may not implement zimop. And thus kernel will have to carry 2
> >> different vDSOs and expose the appropriate one depending on whether CPU implements
> >> zimop or not.
> >
> >If we merge this series without this, then when CFI is enabled in the
> >Kconfig, we'll wind up with a non-portable kernel that won't run on older
> >hardware.  We go to great lengths to enable kernel binary portability
> >across the presence or absence of other RISC-V extensions, and I think
> >these CFI extensions should be no different.
> >
> >So before considering this for merging, I'd like to see at least an
> >attempt to implement the dual-vDSO approach (or something equivalent)
> >where the same kernel binary with CFI enabled can run on both pre-Zimop
> >and post-Zimop hardware, with the existing userspaces that are common
> >today.
>
> Added some distro folks in this email chain.
>
> After patchwork meeting today, I wanted to continue discussion here. So thanks
> Paul for looking into it and initiating a discussion here.
>
> This patch series has been in the queue for quite a long time and we have had
> deliberations on vDSO topic earlier as well and after those deliberations it
> was decided to go ahead with merge and it indeed was sent for 6.17 merge
> window. Unfortunatley due to other unforeseen reasons, entirety of riscv
> changes were not picked. So it's a bit disappointing to see back-paddling on
> this topic.
>
> Anyways, we are here. So I'll provide a bit of context for the list about
> deliberations and discussions we have been having for so many merge windows.
> This so that a holistic discussion can happen on this before we make a
> decision.
>
> Issue
> ======
>
> Instructions in RISC-V shadow stack extension (zicfiss - [1]) are carved out of
> "may be ops" aka zimop extension [2]. "may be ops" are illegal on non-RVA23
> hardware. This means any existing riscv CPU or future CPU which isn't RVA23
> compliant and not implementing zimop will treat these encodings as illegal.
>
> Current kernel patches enable shadow stack and landing pad support for
> userspace using config `CONFIG_RISCV_USER_CFI`. If this config is selected then
> vDSO that will be exposed to user space will also have shadow stack
> instructions in them. Kernel compiled with `CONFIG_RISCV_USER_CFI`, for sake of
> this discussion lets call it RVA23 compiled kernel.
>
> Issue that we discussed earlier and even today is "This RVA23 compiled kernel
> won't be able to support non-RVA23 userspace on non-RVA23 hardware because".
> Please note that issue exists only on non-RVA23 hardware (which is existing
> hardware and future hardware which is not implementing zimop). RVA23 compiled
> kernel can support any sort of userspace on RVA23 hardware.
>
>
> Discussion
> ===========
>
> So the issue is not really shadow stack instructions but rather may be op
> instructions in codegen (binaries and vDSO) which aren't hidden behind any
> flag (to hide them if hardware doesn't support). And if I can narrow down
> further, primary issue we are discussing is that if cfi is enabled during
> kernel compile, it is bringing in a piece of code (vDSO) which won't work
> on existing hardware. But the counter point is if someone were to deploy
> RVA23 compiled kernel on non-RVA23 hardware, they must have compiled
> rest of the userspace without shadow stack instructions in them for such
> a hardware. And thus at this point they could simply choose *not* to turn on
> `CONFIG_RISCV_USER_CFI` when compiling such kernel. It's not that difficult to
> do so.
>
> Any distro who is shipping userspace (which all of them are) along with kernel
> will not be shipping two different userspaces (one with shadow stack and one
> without them). If distro are shipping two different userspaces, then they might
> as well ship two different kernels. Tagging some distro folks here to get their
> take on shipping different userspace depending on whether hardware is RVA23 or
> not. @Heinrich, @Florian, @redbeard and @Aurelien.
>
> Major distro's have already drawn a distinction here that they will drop
> support for hardware which isn't RVA23 for the sake of keeping binary
> distribution simple.
>
> Only other use case that was discussed of a powerful linux user who just wants
> to use a single kernel on all kinds of riscv hardware. I am imagining such a
> user knows enough about kernel and if is really dear to them, they can develop
> their own patches and send it upstream to support their own usecase and we can
> discuss them out. Current patchset don't prevent such a developer to send such
> patches upstream.
>
> I heard the argument in meeting today that "Zbb" enabling works similar for
> kernel today. I looked at "Zbb" enabling. It's for kernel usage and it's
> surgically placed in kernel using asm hidden behind alternatives. vDSO isn't
> compiled with Zbb. Shadow stack instructions are part of codegen for C files
> compiled into vDSO.
>
> Furthermore,
>
> Kernel control flow integrity will introduce shadow stack instructions all
> over the kernel binary. Such kernel won't be deployable on non-RVA23 hardware.
> How to deal with this problem for a savvy kernel developer who wants to run
> same cfi enabled kernel binary on multiple hardware?
>
> Coming from engineering and hacker point of view, I understand the desire here
> but I still see that it's complexity enforced on rest of the kernel from a user
> base which anyways can achieve such goals. For majority of usecases, I don't
> see a reason to increase complexity in the kernel for build, possibly runtime
> patching and thus possibly introduce more issues and errors just for the sake
> of a science project.
>
> Being said that, re-iterating that currently default for `CONFIG_RISCV_USER_CFI`
> is "n" which means it won't be breaking anything unless a user opts "Y". So even
> though I really don't see a reason and usability to have complexity in kernel to
> carry multiple vDSOs, current patchsets are not a hinderance for such future
> capability (because current default is No) and motivated developer is welcome
> to build on top of it. Bottomline is I don't see a reason to block current
> patchset from merging in v6.18.

Sorry for reiterating, I have been gone for a while, so maybe I lost a
bit of context.

In that case, should we add a comment in the Kconfig that says "it
breaks userspace on older-than RVA23 platforms"?

Perhaps a very ugly way to make RVA23-compiled kernel compatible with
pre-RVA23 platforms is to decode maybe-ops in the illegal exception
handler...

Btw, I don't think kenrel-level shadow stack should be an argument
here, as kernel-level APIs are more flexible by nature.

Thanks,
Andy

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