Message-Id: <DD611F6QHQHM.1KNMI58HDKCZ5@kernel.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2025 11:28:21 +0200
From: "Danilo Krummrich" <dakr@...nel.org>
To: "Philipp Stanner" <phasta@...lbox.org>
Cc: <phasta@...nel.org>, "Tvrtko Ursulin" <tvrtko.ursulin@...lia.com>,
 <dri-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>, <amd-gfx@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
 <kernel-dev@...lia.com>, <intel-xe@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
 <cgroups@...r.kernel.org>, <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
 Christian König <christian.koenig@....com>, "Leo Liu"
 <Leo.Liu@....com>, Maíra Canal <mcanal@...lia.com>,
 "Matthew Brost" <matthew.brost@...el.com>, Michal Koutný
 <mkoutny@...e.com>, Michel Dänzer
 <michel.daenzer@...lbox.org>, "Pierre-Eric Pelloux-Prayer"
 <pierre-eric.pelloux-prayer@....com>, "Rob Clark" <robdclark@...il.com>,
 "Tejun Heo" <tj@...nel.org>, "Alexandre Courbot" <acourbot@...dia.com>,
 "Alistair Popple" <apopple@...dia.com>, "John Hubbard"
 <jhubbard@...dia.com>, "Joel Fernandes" <joelagnelf@...dia.com>, "Timur
 Tabi" <ttabi@...dia.com>, "Alex Deucher" <alexander.deucher@....com>,
 "Lucas De Marchi" <lucas.demarchi@...el.com>,
 Thomas Hellström <thomas.hellstrom@...ux.intel.com>,
 "Rodrigo Vivi" <rodrigo.vivi@...el.com>, "Boris Brezillon"
 <boris.brezillon@...labora.com>, "Rob Herring" <robh@...nel.org>, "Steven
 Price" <steven.price@....com>, "Liviu Dudau" <liviu.dudau@....com>, "Daniel
 Almeida" <daniel.almeida@...labora.com>, "Alice Ryhl"
 <aliceryhl@...gle.com>, "Boqun Feng" <boqunf@...flix.com>,
 Grégoire Péan <gpean@...flix.com>, "Simona Vetter"
 <simona@...ll.ch>, <airlied@...il.com>
Subject: Re: DRM Jobqueue design (was "[RFC v8 00/21] DRM scheduling cgroup
 controller")

On Tue Sep 30, 2025 at 11:00 AM CEST, Philipp Stanner wrote:
> +Cc Sima, Dave
>
> On Mon, 2025-09-29 at 16:07 +0200, Danilo Krummrich wrote:
>> On Wed Sep 3, 2025 at 5:23 PM CEST, Tvrtko Ursulin wrote:
>> > This is another respin of this old work^1 which since v7 is a total rewrite and
>> > completely changes how the control is done.
>> 
>> I only got some of the patches of the series, can you please send all of them
>> for subsequent submissions? You may also want to consider resending if you're
>> not getting a lot of feedback due to that. :)
>> 
>> > On the userspace interface side of things it is the same as before. We have
>> > drm.weight as an interface, taking integers from 1 to 10000, the same as CPU and
>> > IO cgroup controllers.
>> 
>> In general, I think it would be good to get GPU vendors to speak up to what kind
>> of interfaces they're heading to with firmware schedulers and potential firmware
>> APIs to control scheduling; especially given that this will be a uAPI.
>> 
>> (Adding a couple of folks to Cc.)
>> 
>> Having that said, I think the basic drm.weight interface is fine and should work
>> in any case; i.e. with the existing DRM GPU scheduler in both modes, the
>> upcoming DRM Jobqueue efforts and should be generic enough to work with
>> potential firmware interfaces we may see in the future.
>> 
>> Philipp should be talking about the DRM Jobqueue component at XDC (probably just
>> in this moment).
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Some more thoughts on the DRM Jobqueue and scheduling:
>> 
>> The idea behind the DRM Jobqueue is to be, as the name suggests, a component
>> that receives jobs from userspace, handles the dependencies (i.e. dma fences),
>> and executes the job, e.g. by writing to a firmware managed software ring.
>> 
>> It basically does what the GPU scheduler does in 1:1 entity-scheduler mode,
>> just without all the additional complexity of moving job ownership from one
>> component to another (i.e. from entity to scheduler, etc.).
>> 
>> With just that, there is no scheduling outside the GPU's firmware scheduler of
>> course. However, additional scheduler capabilities, e.g. to support hardware
>> rings, or manage firmware schedulers that only support a limited number of
>> software rings (like some Mali GPUs), can be layered on top of that:
>> 
>> In contrast to the existing GPU scheduler, the idea would be to keep letting the
>> DRM Jobqueue handle jobs submitted by userspace from end to end (i.e. let the
>> push to the hardware (or software) ring buffer), but have an additional
>> component, whose only purpose is to orchestrate the DRM Jobqueues, by managing
>> when they are allowed to push to a ring and which ring they should push to.
>> 
>> This way we get rid of one of the issue that the existing GPU scheduler moves
>> job ownership between components of different lifetimes (entity and scheduler),
>> which is one of the fundamental hassles to deal with.
>
>
> So just a few minutes ago I had a long chat with Sima.
>
> Sima (and I, too, I think) thinks that the very few GPUs that have a
> reasonably low limit of firmware rings should just resource-limit
> userspace users once the limit of firmware rings is reached.

The main purpose of the design I described is not to cover Mali GPUs, which,
eventually, will get rid of this limitation anyways. It's just that it simply
falls out of the approach to support hardware rings on top of the Jobqueue. So,
why not take advantage of that and instead ask userspace to implement yet
another scheduler?

Besides that, it entirely discards the possibility from taking the firmware
scheduler decisions and the software scheduler decisions into consideration from
a single source, i.e. the kernel driver. Mixing it up between userspace and
kernel seems very messy. Probably that's also why Panthor went down this road?

> Basically like with VRAM.
>
> Apparently Sima had suggested that to Panthor in the past? But Panthor
> still seems to have implemented yet another scheduler mechanism on top
> of the 1:1 entity-scheduler drm_sched setup?
>
> @Boris: Why was that done?
>
> So far I tend to prefer Sima's proposal because I'm currently very
> unsure how we could deal with shared firmware rings – because then we'd
> need to resubmit jobs, and the currently intended Rust ownership model
> would then be at danger, because the Jobqueue would need a:
> pending_list.

How is the ownership model at danger? The Jobqueue will always be the owner of a
job no matter when and to which ring it submits to (by the instruction of the
orchestrator layered on top of it).

> So we'd be running danger of redesigning drm_sched, whereas with Sima's
> idea there'd never be a scheduler anywhere anymore anyways.

Except for GPUs that stick to exposing hardware rings (or have limitations
similar to Mali). Clearly, the trend goes into the direction of firmware
schedulers, but I think eventually we will need some software scheduler solution
on top of the Jobqueue if we don't want to stick with the existing GPU scheduler
forever (which I very much prefer).

Powered by blists - more mailing lists