Message-ID: <7b6a203f-a141-45f7-8a09-a2266e125d22@arm.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2025 17:46:57 +0000
From: Ryan Roberts <ryan.roberts@....com>
To: Lorenzo Stoakes <lorenzo.stoakes@...cle.com>
Cc: Samuel Holland <samuel.holland@...ive.com>,
 "David Hildenbrand (Red Hat)" <david@...nel.org>,
 Palmer Dabbelt <palmer@...belt.com>, Paul Walmsley <pjw@...nel.org>,
 linux-riscv@...ts.infradead.org, Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
 linux-mm@...ck.org, devicetree@...r.kernel.org,
 Suren Baghdasaryan <surenb@...gle.com>, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
 Mike Rapoport <rppt@...nel.org>, Michal Hocko <mhocko@...e.com>,
 Conor Dooley <conor@...nel.org>, Krzysztof Kozlowski <krzk+dt@...nel.org>,
 Alexandre Ghiti <alex@...ti.fr>, Emil Renner Berthing <kernel@...il.dk>,
 Rob Herring <robh+dt@...nel.org>, Vlastimil Babka <vbabka@...e.cz>,
 "Liam R . Howlett" <Liam.Howlett@...cle.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 08/22] mm: Allow page table accessors to be
 non-idempotent

On 16/12/2025 10:29, Lorenzo Stoakes wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 11, 2025 at 01:59:53PM +0000, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>> On 11/12/2025 00:33, Samuel Holland wrote:
>>> On 2025-11-28 2:47 AM, David Hildenbrand (Red Hat) wrote:
>>>> On 11/27/25 17:57, Ryan Roberts wrote:
>>>>> On 13/11/2025 01:45, Samuel Holland wrote:
>>>>>> Currently, some functions such as pte_offset_map() are passed both
>>>>>> pointers to hardware page tables, and pointers to previously-read PMD
>>>>>> entries on the stack. To ensure correctness in the first case, these
>>>>>> functions must use the page table accessor function (pmdp_get()) to
>>>>>> dereference the supplied pointer. However, this means pmdp_get() is
>>>>>> called twice in the second case. This double call must be avoided if
>>>>>> pmdp_get() applies some non-idempotent transformation to the value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Avoid the double transformation by calling set_pmd() on the stack
>>>>>> variables where necessary to keep set_pmd()/pmdp_get() calls balanced.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't think this is a good solution.
>>>>
>>>> Agreed,
>>>>
>>>>     set_pmd(&pmd, pmd);
>>>>
>>>> is rather horrible.
>>> I agree that this patch is ugly. The only way I see to avoid code like this is
>>> to refactor (or duplicate) the functions so no function takes pointers to both
>>> hardware page tables and on-stack page table entries. Is that sort of
>>> refactoring the right direction to go for v4?
>>
>> From a quick look at the code, I think that some cases are solvable by
>> refactoring to pass the value instead of the pointer, and leave it to the higher
>> level decide how to read the value from the pointer - it knows if it is pointing
>> to HW pgtable or if it's a (e.g) stack value.
>>
>> But the more I look at the code, the more instances I find where pointers to
>> stack variables are being passed to arch pgtable helpers as if they are HW
>> pgtable entry pointers. (Mainly pmd level).
> 
> Ugh. We do need to nip this in the bud I think!
> 
>>
>> I wonder if we need to bite the bullet and explicitly separate the types? At
>> each level, we have:
>>
>>  1. page table entry value
>>  2. pointer to page table entry _value_ (e.g. pointer to pXX_t on stack)
>>  3. pointer to page table entry in HW pgtable
>>
>> Today, 1 is represented by pte_t, pmd_t, etc. 2 and 3 are represented by the
>> same type; pte_t*, pmd_t*, etc.
>>
>> If we create a new type for 3, it will both document and enforce when type 2 or
>> type 3 is required.
>>
>> e.g:
>>
>> // pte_t: defined by arch.
>> typedef unsigned long pte_t;
>>
>> // ptep_t: new opaque type that can't be dereferenced.
>> struct __ptep_t;
>> typedef struct __ptep_t *ptep_t;
>>
>> // getter/setter responsible for cast & deref as appropriate.
>> pte_t ptep_get(ptep_t ptep)
>> {
>> 	return READ_ONCE(*(pte_t *)ptep);
>> }
> 
> I think we've got ourselves in a jumble with pte vs ptep vs pteval
> vs. etc. etc. and we aren't always consistent with it.
> 
> So I think we ought to put 'hw' somewhere in the name.

Yeah that would probably give the best end result. I was thinking that ptep/pXdp
might reduce churn since we already use it in function names. Stack pointers are
definitely a small minority so easier to change their convention.

But having an explicit "hw" would probably be best.

> 
> And we can also now get away from the overly abbreviated names given we have the
> chance :)
> 
> So something like 'pte_hw_t' perhaps?

sounds good. Or hw_pte_t? Then "pte_t" is still greppable and it better matches
the hw_pte_get() that you have below.

> 
> I like the general concept, though I think it's kinda gross to hide the fact
> that it's a pointer in the typedef _that_ directly.

My aim was to have a type that you can't dereference, can't accidentally pass as
a pte_t* and also can't increment/decrement/index.

This gives us a framework where the architecture can completely virtualize the
pgtable if it likes; and the compiler can enforce that higher level code can't
accidentally work around it.

I have a couple of use cases where these properties will come in handy; arm64
now defines 128-bit pgtables. We have a prototype adding it to the kernel, but
at the moment it has to be a compile time descision so that all the generic code
knows the size of the entries. It would be preferable to make it a boot time
decision, based on the HW capabilities (or cmdline, ...). But for that, we need
to better insulate the physical pgtables from the core-mm. This concept solves that.

> 
> So perhaps be less horrid if it was something like:
> 
> typedef struct {
> 	pte_t *ptr;
> } pte_hw_t;
> 
> Perhaps?

I _think_ that works for the above, and it is certainly nicer.

pte_hw_t pte_table = pte_alloc(...);
for (i = 0; i < PTRS_PER_PTE; i++)
	hw_pte_get(pte_table[i]);

I think that would fail to compile, right? Which is what we want. Instead we
need something like:

pte_hw_t hwpte = pte_alloc(...);
for (i = 0; i < PTRS_PER_PTE; i++, hwpte = hw_pte_next(hwpte))
	hw_pte_get(hwpte);

> 
> Then could have:
> 
> pte_t hw_pte_get(pte_hw_t pte_hw)
> {
> 	return READ_ONCE(*pte_hw.ptr);
> }
> 
>>
>> int do_stuff(void)
>> {
>> 	// value on stack: ok
>> 	pte_t mypte;
>>
>> 	// pointer to value on stack: ok
>> 	pte_t *pmypte = &mypte;
>>
>> 	// handle to entry on stack: not allowed by compiler!
>> 	ptep_t myptep = &mypte;
>>
>> 	// handle to entry in pgtable: ok
>> 	ptep_t myptep = pte_offset_kernel(...);
>>
>> 	// read value of pgtable entry: ok
>> 	pte_t val = ptep_get(myptep);
>>
>> 	// attempt to pass pointer to stack variable: not allowed by compiler!
>> 	pte_t val = ptep_get(&mypte);
>>
>> 	// attempt to directly dereference ptep: not allowed by compiler!
>> 	pte_t val = *myptep;
>> }
>>
>>
>> We could do this incrementally by initially typedefing ptep_t to be:
>> typedef pte_t *ptep_t;
> 
> Hm yeah still hate the idea of typedef'ing this as a ptr so directly.

What's the problem with it?

> 
> Obviously this would make an incremental thing a little harder, but could have
> this stuff on top of existing logic and make it incremental by changing logic
> bit-by-bit?

I'm not sure... sounds to me like we would need to convert absolutely everything
including arches that are difficult for most people to test. With the "typedef
pte_t *hw_pte_t;" approach, you can go bit-by-bit and leave those unloved arches
alone entirely.

> 
>>
>> Then we could flip the switch arch-by-arch to enable the stronger checking. We
>> likely wouldn't need to convert arches that don't care.
>>
>> I think by doing this, it will expose all the current issues and force us to fix
>> them properly.
> 
> Yeah this is nice.
> 
>>
>> On the related subject of conversion to pXXp_get(); I've been looking into this
>> and personally, I think we should have 2 helper flavours at each level:
>>
>>  - pXXd_get()      optimizable by compiler; defaults to C dereference
>>  - pXXd_get_once() single-copy-atomic and unmovable by compiler
> 
> Yes!
> 
> There is some _real_ confusion about when and when we don't need to do this.

I think the requirements are basically this:

"_ONCE" gives 2 properties; single-copy-atomicity and compiler can't move/remove
instructions.

SCA is important to prevent tearing if the HW can update the PTE concurrently
with SW reading it (i.e. HW access/dirty) or if SW is reading without holding
the PTL. But there are times when it doesn't matter if the PTE gets torn because
you are only comparing the result using pte_none() or pte_same().

The "compiler can't move/remove" property (I'm sure there is a formal name for
this?) is important for lockless walkers. Probably you could achieve similar
results by using barrier()?

> 
> Though wouldn't having a typdef separating out a hw entry imply that hw entry ->
> get once, sw entry -> get?

No; you should never use the accessor methods for sw entries - they are just
variables - read them normally. If all HW accesses use "once", then the compiler
can't optimize away the accesses for the folded pgtable case.

> 
>>
>> It simplifies the converstion process, and reduces the risk of bugs
>> significantly (go read about the arm32 issues discussed in Anshuman's series if
>> you haven't done already).
> 
> Though I haven't read this series so can't remember actually if there were cases
> where even with hw entries we wanted to sometimes READ_ONCE() and sometimes not?

Yes exactly that.

> 
>>
>> I appreciate this is all probably a lot more work than you would prefer to sign
>> up for, I'd be happy to collaborate if we get concensus that this approach makes
>> sense. What do you think?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ryan
>>
> 
> Thanks for this concept, overall very much in agreement!

I think it would work but it's going to be a lot of churn. But if you think it's
worth it and we'll be able to get it in, then I'm up for working on it in the
background.

> 
> Cheers, Lorenzo

Powered by blists - more mailing lists