Message-ID: <46BCC12F.9020803@redhat.com>
Date:	Fri, 10 Aug 2007 15:49:03 -0400
From:	Chris Snook <csnook@...hat.com>
To:	paulmck@...ux.vnet.ibm.com
CC:	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, linux-arch@...r.kernel.org,
	torvalds@...ux-foundation.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
	akpm@...ux-foundation.org, ak@...e.de, heiko.carstens@...ibm.com,
	davem@...emloft.net, schwidefsky@...ibm.com, wensong@...ux-vs.org,
	horms@...ge.net.au, wjiang@...ilience.com, cfriesen@...tel.com,
	zlynx@....org, rpjday@...dspring.com, jesper.juhl@...il.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 1/24] make atomic_read() behave consistently on alpha

Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 03:24:40PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
>> Paul E. McKenney wrote:
>>> On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 02:13:52PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
>>>> Paul E. McKenney wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 01:14:35PM -0400, Chris Snook wrote:
>>>>>>                               If you're depending on volatile writes 
>>>>>> being visible to other CPUs, you're screwed either way, because the CPU 
>>>>>> can hold that data in cache as long as it wants before it writes it to 
>>>>>> memory.  When this finally does happen, it will happen atomically, 
>>>>>> which is all that atomic_set guarantees.  If you need to guarantee that 
>>>>>> the value is written to memory at a particular time in your execution 
>>>>>> sequence, you either have to read it from memory to force the compiler 
>>>>>> to store it first (and a volatile cast in atomic_read will suffice for 
>>>>>> this) or you have to use LOCK_PREFIX instructions which will invalidate 
>>>>>> remote cache lines containing the same variable.  This patch doesn't 
>>>>>> change either of these cases.
>>>>> The case that it -can- change is interactions with interrupt handlers.
>>>>> And NMI/SMI handlers, for that matter.
>>>> You have a point here, but only if you can guarantee that the interrupt 
>>>> handler is running on a processor sharing the cache that has the 
>>>> not-yet-written volatile value.  That implies a strictly non-SMP 
>>>> architecture.  At the moment, none of those have volatile in their 
>>>> declaration of atomic_t, so this patch can't break any of them.
>>> This can also happen when using per-CPU variables.  And there are a
>>> number of per-CPU variables that are either atomic themselves or are
>>> structures containing atomic fields.
>> Accessing per-CPU variables in this fashion reliably already requires a 
>> suitable smp/non-smp read/write memory barrier.  I maintain that if we 
>> break anything with this change, it was really already broken, if less 
>> obviously.  Can you give a real or synthetic example of legitimate code 
>> that could break?
> 
> My main concern is actually the lack of symmetry -- I would expect
> that an atomic_set() would have the same properties as atomic_read().
> It is easy and cheap to provide them with similar properties, so why not?
> Debugging even a single problem would consume far more time than simply
> giving them corresponding semantics.
> 
> But you asked for examples.  These are synthetic, and of course legitimacy
> is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> 1.  Watchdog variable.
> 
> 	atomic_t watchdog = ATOMIC_INIT(0);
> 
> 	...
> 
> 	int i;
> 	while (!done) {
> 
> 		/* Do so stuff that doesn't take more than a few us. */
> 		/* Could do atomic increment, but throughput penalty. */
> 
> 		i++;
> 		atomic_set(&watchdog, i);
> 	}
> 	do_something_with(&watchdog);
> 
> 
> 	/* Every so often on some other CPU... */
> 
> 	if ((new_watchdog = atomic_read(&watchdog)) == old_watchdog)
> 		die_horribly();
> 	old_watchdog = new_watchdog;
> 
> 
> 	If atomic_set() did not have volatile semantics, the compiler
> 	would be within its rights optimizing it to simply get the
> 	final value of "i" after exit from the loop.  This would cause
> 	the watchdog check to fail spuriously.  Memory barriers are
> 	not required in this case, because the CPU cannot hang onto
> 	the value for very long -- we don't care about the exact value,
> 	or about exact synchronization, but rather about whether or
> 	not the value is changing.
> 
> 	In this (toy) example, one might replace the atomic_set() with
> 	an atomic increment (though that might be too expensive in some
> 	cases) or with something like:
> 
> 		atomic_set(&watchdog, atomic_read(&watchdog) + 1);
> 
> 	However, other cases might not permit this transformation,
> 	for example, an existing heavily used API might take int rather
> 	than atomic_t.
> 
> 	Some will no doubt argue that this example should use a
> 	macro or an asm similar to the "forget()" asm put forward
> 	elsewhere in this thread.
> 
> 2.  Communicating both with interrupt handler and with other CPUs.
>     For example, data elements that are built up in a location visible
>     to interrupts and NMIs, and then added as a unit to a data structure
>     visible to other CPUs.  This more-realistic example is abbreviated
>     to the point of pointlessness as follows:
> 
> 	struct foo {
> 		atomic_t a;
> 		atomic_t b;
> 	};
> 
> 	DEFINE_PER_CPU(struct foo *, staging) = NULL;
> 
> 	/* Create element in staging area. */
> 
> 	__get_cpu_var(staging) = kzalloc(sizeof(*p), GFP_WHATEVER);
> 	if (__get_cpu_var(staging) == NULL)
> 		die_horribly();
> 	/* allocate an element of some per-CPU array, get the result in "i" */
> 	atomic_set(__get_cpu_var(staging).a, i);
> 	/* allocate another element of a per-CPU array, with result in "i" */
> 	atomic_set(__get_cpu_var(staging).b, i);
> 	rcu_assign_pointer(some_global_place, __get_cpu_var(staging));
> 
> 	If atomic_set() didn't have volatile semantics, then an interrupt
> 	or NMI handler could see the atomic_set() to .a and .b out of
> 	order due to compiler optimizations.
> 
> Remember, you -did- ask for these!!!  ;-)

Ok, I'm convinced.  Part of the motivation here is to avoid heisenbugs, 
so if people expect volatile atomic_set behavior, I'm inclined to give 
it to them.  I don't really feel like indulging the compiler bug 
paranoiacs, but developer expectations are a legitimate motivation, and 
a major part of why I posted this in the first place.  I'll resubmit the 
patchset with a volatile cast in atomic_set.  Before I do, is there 
anything *else* that desperately needs such a cast?  As far as I can 
tell, all the other functions are implemented with __asm__ __volatile__, 
or with spinlocks that use that under the hood.

	-- Chris
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