Message-Id: <20080414010412.c42dc560.akpm@linux-foundation.org>
Date:	Mon, 14 Apr 2008 01:04:12 -0700
From:	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>
To:	Al Viro <viro@...IV.linux.org.uk>
Cc:	Willy Tarreau <w@....eu>, david@...g.hm,
	Stephen Clark <sclark46@...thlink.net>,
	Evgeniy Polyakov <johnpol@....mipt.ru>,
	"Rafael J. Wysocki" <rjw@...k.pl>, Tilman Schmidt <tilman@...p.cc>,
	Valdis.Kletnieks@...edu, Mark Lord <lkml@....ca>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, jesper.juhl@...il.com,
	yoshfuji@...ux-ipv6.org, jeff@...zik.org,
	linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>, git@...r.kernel.org,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Reporting bugs and bisection

On Mon, 14 Apr 2008 08:23:28 +0100 Al Viro <viro@...IV.linux.org.uk> wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 13, 2008 at 11:24:41PM -0700, Andrew Morton wrote:
> 
> > No.  The problem we're discussing here is the apparently-large number of
> > bugs which are in the kernel, the apparently-large number of new bugs which
> > we're adding to the kernel, and our apparent tardiness in addressing them.
> > 
> > Do you agree with these impressions, or not?
> > 
> > If you do agree, what would you propose we do about it?
> 
> In addition to obvious "we need testing and something better than bugzilla
> to keep track of bugs"?

Swapping out bugzilla for something else wouldn't help.  We'd end up with
lots of people ignoring a good bug tracking system just like they were
ignoring a bad one.

(And I don't think developers and maintainers _should_ spend time mucking
in bug-tracking systems.  They should have helpers who do all the
triaging/tracking/routing/closing work for them, and then provide other
developers with the results, letting them know what they should be spending
time on.  But there's a manpower problem).

>  Real review of code in tree and patches getting into
> the tree.
> 
> And the latter part _must_ be done on each entry point.  Any git tree
> that acts as injection point really needs a working mechanism of some
> sort that would do that; afterwards it's too late, since review of
> the stuff getting into mainline on a massive merge is sadly impractical.
> 
> I don't know any formal mechanism that could take care of that; no more
> than making sure that no backdoors are injected into the tree.  It really
> has to be a matter of trust for tree maintainers and community around
> the subsystem.
> 
> Git is damn good at killing the merge bottleneck.  Too good, since it
> hides the review bottleneck.  And we get equivalents of self-selected
> communities that had been problem for "here's our CVS, here's monthly
> dump from it, apply" kind of setups.  It _is_ better, since one can
> get to commit history (modulo interesting issues with merge nodes and
> conflict resolution).  But in practice it's not good enough - the patches
> going in during a merge (especially for a tree that collects from
> secondaries) are not visible enough.  And it's too late at that point,
> since one has to do something monumentally ugly to get Linus revert
> a large merge.  On the scale of Great IDE Mess in 2.5...
> 
> linux-next might help with the last part, but I don't think it really
> deals with the first one.  It certainly helps to some extent, but...
> 
> We need higher S/N on l-k.  We need people looking into the subsystem
> trees as those grow and causing a stench when bad things are found,
> with design issues getting brought to l-k if nothing else helps.  We
> need tree maintainers understanding that review, including out-of-community
> one, is needed (the need of testing is generally better understood - I
> _hope_).
> 
> We need more people reading the fscking source.  Subsystem by subsystem.
> Without assumption that code is not broken.  With mechanism collating
> the questions asked and answers given.  Ideally we need growing documentation
> of core subsystems and data structures, with explicit goal of helping
> reviewers new to an area to find their way around it.  And yes, I'm
> guilty of procrastinating on that - several half-finished pieces on
> VFS-related stuff are sitting locally ;-/
> 
> We need gregkh to get real and stop assuming that two Signed-off-by are
> equivalent to "reviewed at least twice", while we are at it ;-)
> 
> We need people to realize that warnings are useful as triage tools -
> not as "Ug see warning.  Warning bad.  Ug fix that line.  Warning go away.
> Ug changeset count grow.  Ug happy.", but as machine-assisted part of
> finding confused areas of code.  With human combining signals from
> different warnings to get statistically useful triage strategies (note
> that aforementioned making gcc/sparse/whatnot to STFU by local change
> has a lovely potential of distorting those signals and actually _hiding_
> crap code).
> 
> Maybe we need a list a-la linux-arch for tree maintainers to coordinate
> stuff - obviously open not only for those.
> 
> We really need to get around to doing triage of remaining stuff in -mm,
> BTW - again, guilty for not getting through such on VFS-related stuff
> in there.  Hopefully linux-next trees will eventually vacuum most of the
> pile in...

That all sounds good and I expect few would disagree.  But if it is to
happen, it clearly won't happen by itself, automatically.  We will need to
force it upon ourselves and the means by which we will do that is process
changes.  The thing which is being disparaged as "bureaucracy".

The steps to be taken are:

a) agree that we have a problem

b) agree that we need to address it

c) identify the day-to-day work practices which will help address it (as
   you have done)

d) identify the process changes which will force us to adopt those practices

e) implement those process changes.

I have thus far failed to get us past step a).

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