Date:	Mon, 17 Nov 2008 15:16:40 -0600
From:	Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@....abdn.ac.uk>
To:	Ian McDonald <ian.mcdonald@...di.co.nz>
CC:	Gerrit Renker <gerrit@....abdn.ac.uk>,
	Leandro Sales <leandroal@...il.com>,
	Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo <acme@...hat.com>,
	DCCP Mailing List <dccp@...r.kernel.org>,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org, DCCP mailing list <dccp@...f.org>
Subject: Re: [dccp] [RFC] dccp ccid-3: High-res or low-res timers? <cross
 post>


Before I say more, I think I would like to prefix this with my own 
personal view:

Many applications using TFRC will not normally try to send at the 
maximum permitted rate (i.e. are data/application limited). I expect 
these to be typical of apps expected to use DCCP CCID-3. That is, TFRC 
for DCCP could be thought of as providing a congestion-responsive 
protocol that responds to congestion in a way that is not (much) worse 
than that of TCP - to me this does not imply a need for equality in 
terms of throughput with TCP (i.e. I think a good use of the algorithm 
is to prevent a TFRC application from sending more, or at least not much 
more than a TCP flow would have sent).


Now to the response:

TFRC has been put forward for a wide range of applications - from 
extremely low rate (e.g. vocoded VoIP) to high rate (>> Gbps), with LAN 
delays to wide-area/wireless environments with long RTTs. I suggest, at 
least in the immediate future, most common DCCP applications will 
operate at low (kbps) to medium rates (few Mbps). My suggestion is 
therefore aim for a good stack for low-medium rates, were course clock 
granuality may be OK, and which avoids some of the pitfalls identified 
by Gerrit's email. Does anyone have a different vision of the near future?

I read RFC 5348, s4.6 as saying you can send extra data after being data 
limited/idle, but shouldn't send long bursts  - my thinking was that 
this was intended to address an issue for long delay paths. Short RTT 
paths anyway allow the sender to rapidly grow the rate, and are not 
usually so constrained by TFRC (at least at typical application rates).


Gorry


Ian McDonald wrote:
> OK. I'll add a few comments even though I'm a little bit rusty...
> 
> I was previously an advocate of low resolution timers and then use
> bursts as needed to achieve the average rate as specified in RFC3448.
> 
> The reasoning for this was very much as you discuss in point 1 - that
> you achieve less than the desired rate with high resolution timers as
> you will never get exactly to transmit at the time you require (unless
> you have a "hard" realtime system with desired accuracy) - so any
> delay will slow down your transmit rate, and that high resolution
> timers may not be available on all architectures. I also had a third
> reason - overhead - if you're interrupting other tasks and having to
> do a context switch many, many times a second surely that isn't so
> good?
> 
> However RFC 5348 changes this as this clause is added to 4.6:
>   To limit burstiness, a TFRC implementation MUST prevent bursts of
>    arbitrary size.  This limit MUST be less than or equal to one round-
>    trip time's worth of packets.  A TFRC implementation MAY limit bursts
>    to less than a round-trip time's worth of packets
> 
> and this is further explained in section 8.3 and the downside - that
> you can't send big bursts so you can't get the full calculated rate.
> 
> The RFC uses an example of 1 msec scheduling and 0.1 msec RTT. However
> what would be worse is devices on a LAN with 10 msec timer - e.g. two
> embedded devices at home - I haven't done the maths but I think the
> rate achievable would be quite low.
> 
> One thing that I think we do need to be careful about though is
> assuming that we should be trying to get very high speed transfer -
> DCCP is not what we would layer a file serving protocol on top of....
> (some have argued you shouldn't even use TCP for this on a LAN...)
> 
> Thinking laterally there is another possible solution - something I
> used way back in the 80s for another project - build your own
> scheduler! We could set a high resolution timer to tick every 0.1 msec
> and then use the coarse grained algorithm at that point....
> 
> This is a hack to some degree and I can imagine David Miller
> suggesting that it is more a protocol issue... The other thing is that
> if we did this we would have to only do it when we actually need and
> use higher granularity at other times or else the Powertop people may
> not be so happy.
> 
> Anyway - something to think about. I've also added the IETF list as
> well in case people there have the answers.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Ian
> 
> On Sat, Nov 15, 2008 at 11:50 PM, Gerrit Renker <gerrit@....abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>> I would appreciate some advice and insights regarding the use of
>> high-resolution timers within a transport protocol, specifically
>> DCCP with CCID-3 (RFC 5348).
>>
>> Currently the implementation is in a limbo of high-resolution and
>> low-resolution code. It is not good, neither here nor there, so
>> I would like to work on making the interface consistent.
>>
>> After thinking this through I encountered a number of points
>> which made me question whether high-resolution timers will lead to
>> better performance and a cleaner interface.
>>
>> I'd appreciate comments and input on this, the points are below.
>>
>> 1. Handling unavoidable waiting times
>> -------------------------------------
>>  One can not expect that, if the scheduling clock says 'send in x
>>  microseconds', a packet will indeed leave after x microseconds; due to
>>  waiting times. An example is in net/dccp/timer.c, when the socket is
>>  currently locked - we wait for a "small" amount of time:
>>
>>        bh_lock_sock(sk);
>>        if (sock_owned_by_user(sk))
>>                sk_reset_timer(sk, &dp->dccps_xmit_timer, jiffies + 1);
>>        else
>>                dccp_write_xmit(sk, 0);
>>        bh_unlock_sock(sk);
>>
>>
>> 2. Dependency on high-resolution timers
>> ---------------------------------------
>>  Committing the CCID-3/CCID-4 implementations to using high-resolution
>>  timers means that the modules can not be built/loaded when the kernel
>>  does not offer sufficient resolution.
>>
>>  This has recently made it hard for someone using CCID-3 to find out
>>  why DCCP would not run, where the cause was that high-resolution timers
>>  were not enabled in the kernel.
>>
>>
>> 3. Noise in the output
>> ----------------------
>> When tracking the speed of a car every 10 seconds, there is a lot of variation
>> in the values, due to stopping at traffic lights, accelerating etc. But when
>> considering a larger timescale, one can say that the average speed from city
>> A to city B was xx mph, since the whole journey took 2.5 hours.
>>
>> The same can currently be observed with X_recv - there is one commit which
>> tries to make X_recv as fine-grained as possible, it is labelled "dccp ccid-3:
>> Update the computation of X_recv",
>> http://eden-feed.erg.abdn.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=dccp_exp.git;a=commitdiff;h=2d0b687025494e5d8918ffcc7029d793390835cc
>>
>> The result is that X_recv now shows much wider variation, on a small timescale
>> there is a lot happening. It can best be seen by plotting the X_recv using
>> dccp_probe. Without this commit the graphs are much 'quieter' and just show
>> the long-term average.
>>
>> In TCP Westwood for instance a low-pass filter is used to filter out the
>> high-frequency changes in the measurements of the Ack Rate:
>>
>> "TCP Westwood: Bandwidth Estimation for Enhanced Transport over Wireless Links"
>> Mobicom 2001
>> http://www.cs.ucla.edu/NRL/hpi/tcpw/tcpw_papers/2001-mobicom-0.pdf
>>
>> I'd appreciate opinions on this, as I think
>>
>> With regard to CCID-3, it also seems to be be better to revert the above
>> commit and just use long-term averages.
>>
>>
>> 4. Not sure using high-resolution is the answer
>> -----------------------------------------------
>> While a fine-grained timer resolution may be desirable, it is not
>> necessarily a must. The implementation of rate-based pacing in TCP
>> (http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/PAPERS/Visweswaraiah97b.html) for instance
>> also used low(er) resolution timers and it worked.
>>
>> The RFC for CCID-3 (http://www.rfc-archive.org/getrfc.php?rfc=5348) also
>> does not high-resolution; it supports coarse-grained timestamps (section
>> 6.3 and RFC 4342) and discusses implementation issues when using a
>> lower resolution (section 8.3).
>>
>> The counter-argument could be that CCID-3 is a transport protocol with a
>> built-in Token Bucket Filter so that similar considerations apply as for
>> the Qdisc API (net/sched/sch_api.c).
>>
>> Summing up, I have doubts that basing CCID-3 will bring advantages and
>> would much rather go the other way and (consistently) use lower resolution.
>>
>> Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Web: http://wand.net.nz/~iam4/, http://www.jandi.co.nz
> Blog: http://iansblog.jandi.co.nz
> 
> 

--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

Powered by blists - more mailing lists