netdev - Re: MACVLANs really best solution? How about a bridge with multiple bridge virtual interfaces? (was Re: [PATCH] macvlan: Support creating macvlans from macvlans)

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Message-ID: <49B3F82A.10103@candelatech.com>
Date:	Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:54:02 -0700
From:	Ben Greear <greearb@...delatech.com>
To:	Mark Smith 
	<nanog@...5b20a518b8f6864949bd940457dc124746ddc.nosense.org>
CC:	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>,
	Patrick McHardy <kaber@...sh.net>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
	shemminger@...ux-foundation.org
Subject: Re: MACVLANs really best solution? How about a bridge with multiple
 bridge virtual interfaces? (was Re: [PATCH] macvlan: Support creating macvlans
 from macvlans)

Mark Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 10:13:16 -0800
> ebiederm@...ssion.com (Eric W. Biederman) wrote:
>
>   
>> Ben Greear <greearb@...delatech.com> writes:
>>
>>     
>>> Mark Smith wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Ben said,
>>>>   
>>>>         
>>>>> I wouldn't deny sending with wrong source mac..ethernet interfaces can do
>>>>> this,
>>>>> and mac-vlan should look as much like ethernet is possible.
>>>>>     
>>>>>           
>>>> I agree, however there's further things that mac-vlans aren't
>>>> currently doing as virtual ethernet interfaces that real ones do.
>>>> Unicast ethernet traffic sent out one mac-vlan interface with a
>>>> destination address of another mac-vlan interface on the same host
>>>> isn't delivered. mac-vlan interfaces, even though they're conceptually
>>>> located on the same ethernet segment, are currently isolated from each
>>>> other for unicast traffic.
>>>>   
>>>>         
>>> At least for my use, having them all blindly TX is fine.  For thousands
>>> of interfaces, if you did this right and also delivered all broadcast packets
>>> locally
>>> (ie, ARP), you will cause a lot of overhead, and unless you are running a
>>> patched
>>> kernel (or namespaces perhaps), you can't really communicate with yourself over
>>> the
>>> network anyway using IP.
>>>
>>> For the behaviour you want, try adding pairs of VETH interfaces and add one end
>>> of the veth's to the bridge.  Add a physical port to the bridge for egress.
>>> Since this
>>> can be done, I don't really see any reason to change mac-vlan significantly...
>>>
>>> If the veth/bridge thing doesn't work, then let us know, as I think that would
>>> be
>>> a bug.  I use a similar-to-veth virtual-device pair in this way and it works
>>> fine.
>>>       
>> There is one scenario in which macvlans totally beat bridging veth
>> devices.  macvlans support the full set of stateless hardware
>> offloads that the hardware supports.  Whereas veth device support none
>> of them.
>>
>> I don't think changing macvlans makes a lot of sense.  Beyond the
>> pain of making it work, there are the semantic differences of local
>> broadcast working.
>>
>> Doing something so that bridges have roughly the same performance 
>> as macvlans would be very nice.  I think it requires advertising
>> most if not all stateless hardware offloads, and then implementing
>> them in software on the endpoints that don't support them.
>>
>> I did get as far as implementing a first draft at looping packets back
>> locally and behaviour difference for broadcasts and multicast
>> differences made macvlans a bad fit.  For clean code something like
>> the bridge code where you don't use the original interface directly
>> for sending and receiving traffic seems required.
>>
>>     
>
> So then, my question is, what are mac-vlans for i.e. what is their
> common use case?
>
> The problem I was trying to solve was to run up an arbitrary
> number of PPPoE servers on a single LAN segment. I could do that
> with physical interfaces, however I only had a maximum of 4 ethernet
> interfaces in the host. Using mac-vlans seemed to be the obvious way to
> eliminate the physical constraints of the host. I did expect though that
> the mac-vlan virtual interfaces would work the same real interfaces, so
> I was expecting that I could bridge them and that unicast traffic
> between them would work.
>   
Doesn't pppoe always talk to an upstream box (the pppoe-server)?  If 
that is so,
why would the local mac-vlans ever need to communicate directly to 
eachother?

We've used pppoe on mac-vlans, and it *seemed* to work, but perhaps we 
were missing
something...

I think they might also be useful for adding a more realistic 'virtual 
ip' to an interface, perhaps
for interesting routing setups.

Thanks,
Ben

-- 
Ben Greear <greearb@...delatech.com> 
Candela Technologies Inc  http://www.candelatech.com


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