netdev - Re: [PATCH v3 3/6] vbus: add a "vbus-proxy" bus model for vbus

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Message-ID: <20090818084606.GA13878@redhat.com>
Date:	Tue, 18 Aug 2009 11:46:06 +0300
From:	"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:	Gregory Haskins <gregory.haskins@...il.com>
Cc:	Anthony Liguori <anthony@...emonkey.ws>,
	Ingo Molnar <mingo@...e.hu>,
	Gregory Haskins <ghaskins@...ell.com>, kvm@...r.kernel.org,
	Avi Kivity <avi@...hat.com>,
	alacrityvm-devel@...ts.sourceforge.net,
	linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH v3 3/6] vbus: add a "vbus-proxy" bus model for
	vbus_driver objects

On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 04:17:09PM -0400, Gregory Haskins wrote:
> Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 10:14:56AM -0400, Gregory Haskins wrote:
> >> Case in point: Take an upstream kernel and you can modprobe the
> >> vbus-pcibridge in and virtio devices will work over that transport
> >> unmodified.
> >>
> >> See http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/8/6/244 for details.
> > 
> > The modprobe you are talking about would need
> > to be done in guest kernel, correct?
> 
> Yes, and your point is? "unmodified" (pardon the psuedo pun) modifies
> "virtio", not "guest".
>  It means you can take an off-the-shelf kernel
> with off-the-shelf virtio (ala distro-kernel) and modprobe
> vbus-pcibridge and get alacrityvm acceleration.

Heh, by that logic ksplice does not modify running kernel either :)

> It is not a design goal of mine to forbid the loading of a new driver,
> so I am ok with that requirement.
> 
> >> OTOH, Michael's patch is purely targeted at improving virtio-net on kvm,
> >> and its likewise constrained by various limitations of that decision
> >> (such as its reliance of the PCI model, and the kvm memory scheme).
> > 
> > vhost is actually not related to PCI in any way. It simply leaves all
> > setup for userspace to do.  And the memory scheme was intentionally
> > separated from kvm so that it can easily support e.g. lguest.
> > 
> 
> I think you have missed my point. I mean that vhost requires a separate
> bus-model (ala qemu-pci).

So? That can be in userspace, and can be anything including vbus.

> And no, your memory scheme is not separated,
> at least, not very well.  It still assumes memory-regions and
> copy_to_user(), which is very kvm-esque.

I don't think so: works for lguest, kvm, UML and containers

> Vbus has people using things
> like userspace containers (no regions),

vhost by default works without regions

> and physical hardware (dma
> controllers, so no regions or copy_to_user) so your scheme quickly falls
> apart once you get away from KVM.

Someone took a driver and is building hardware for it ... so what?

> Don't get me wrong:  That design may have its place.  Perhaps you only
> care about fixing KVM, which is a perfectly acceptable strategy.
> Its just not a strategy that I think is the best approach.  Essentially you
> are promoting the proliferation of competing backends, and I am trying
> to unify them (which is ironic that this thread started with concerns I
> was fragmenting things ;).

So, you don't see how venet fragments things? It's pretty obvious ...

> The bottom line is, you have a simpler solution that is more finely
> targeted at KVM and virtio-networking.  It fixes probably a lot of
> problems with the existing implementation, but it still has limitations.
> 
> OTOH, what I am promoting is more complex, but more flexible.  That is
> the tradeoff.  You can't have both ;)

We can. connect eventfds to hypercalls, and vhost will work with vbus.

> So do not for one second think
> that what you implemented is equivalent, because they are not.
> 
> In fact, I believe I warned you about this potential problem when you
> decided to implement your own version.  I think I said something to the
> effect of "you will either have a subset of functionality, or you will
> ultimately reinvent what I did".  Right now you are in the subset phase.

No. Unlike vbus, vhost supports unmodified guests and live migration.

> Perhaps someday you will be in the complete-reinvent phase.  Why you
> wanted to go that route when I had already worked though the issues is
> something perhaps only you will ever know, but I'm sure you had your
> reasons. But do note you could have saved yourself grief by reusing my
> already implemented and tested variant, as I politely offered to work
> with you on making it meet your needs.
> Kind Regards
> -Greg
> 

you have a midlayer.  I could not use it without pulling in all of it.

-- 
MST
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