Message-ID: <4E7D8537.8010302@grandegger.com>
Date:	Sat, 24 Sep 2011 09:22:31 +0200
From:	Wolfgang Grandegger <wg@...ndegger.com>
To:	Pavel Pisa <pisa@....felk.cvut.cz>
CC:	SocketCAN Core Mailing List <socketcan-core@...ts.berlios.de>,
	Oliver Hartkopp <socketcan@...tkopp.net>,
	Linux Netdev List <netdev@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next v2] candev: allow SJW user setting for bittiming
 calculation

Hi Pavel,

On 09/23/2011 11:32 AM, Pavel Pisa wrote:
> Hello Oliver and Wolfgang,
> 
> On Friday 23 September 2011 09:24:20 Wolfgang Grandegger wrote:
>> Hi Oliver,
>>
>> On 09/22/2011 09:41 PM, Oliver Hartkopp wrote:
>> Then let us set it to 4 (maximum), by default. But other documents
>> recommend a value of 1.
> 
> I am not expert for CAN timing nor I have time to go through
> documentation at this moment. But I hope that I have some
> sense/experience  for electronic and dynamic systems
> and we have done more designs utilizing CAN at university
> and at our company.
> 
> So there are some thought about SJW based on my experience.
> There could be some inaccuracies, if you want better
> analysis, I need time for that.
> 
> 1) The CAN needs fast local roundrip time for correct operation
> of dominant/recessive arbitration.
> The time is sum of propagation from CAN controller chip,
> propagation delay of optocoupler or other galvanic isolation,
> slew rate and delay in Tx circuitry of transceiver, charging
> the wire, Rx part of receiver, optocoupler, controller
> Rx filtering and Rx,Tx logic level comparator.
> Iw we count necessity to synchronize this between multiple
> CAN nodes then whole roundtrip time has to be smaller than
> 50-80% of single bit bit time quantum.
> 
> 2) From the noise and stabilization of voltage on the wire
> the sampling point should be in the middle of bit pulse
> delayed by round-trip delay from 1. This is 50% of bit
> time (i.e. dependent on bitrate) + round trip delay (dependent
> on delay in controller and concrete board circuitry).
> 
> 3) But sampling point has to allow to decide about collision
> before next bit Tx is started => it cannot be moved after
> end of the given Tx bit time interval.
> 
> 4) It is necessary to synchronize bit timing in all
> CAN controllers during arbitration (ID sending) phase.
> The first sync is done after receiving of the first
> edge on the wire. It can be other node start of Tx
> or our own Tx dominant level. Controller shifts its Tx
> timing such way, that start of the next Tx bit interval
> should result in Rx transition at the end the sensed
> Rx bit. I.e. it counts only TSEG2 til next bit start.
> 
> 5) There are some more things to consider if triple
> sampling and filtering is enabled to suppress noise
> on wire. It can be used only, if time quantum clocks
> are fast enough to fit this sampling interval between
> stabilization of delayed Rx logic level and end of Tx bit
> time interval.
> 
> 6) If the clock frequencies of all nodes CAN controllers
> are guaranteed to be same, then no more synchronization
> is necessary during message Tx/Rx (SJW=0). But that assumption
> does not hold. That is why bitstuffing is used and guarantees
> that there is at least one logic level transition (edge)
> after each 6 bit time. If there is zero roundtrip propagation
> delay and sampling in 50% of bit time interval then
> maximal skew/frequency difference of the clocks could be
> 
>   (1+1/6*50%) - 1 i.e. 8%
> 
> This means, that SJW bigger than 8% of whole bit time
> would not help to synchronize bitrate difference, because
> for such case setup cannot work anyway. Propagation delay
> is not zero then there is even less time left for sampling
> point shift which would not cause incorrect bit data
> detection so reasonable maximum is probably lower.
> 
> I expect that for reasonable precise setup of bitrate
> when exact ratio is found and crystal based oscillators
> there is the best option small SJW i.e. 1 or for very
> fast TQ clock equivalent of 1% - 2% of bittime.
> For nonexact ratio or low quality clocks sources,
> bigger SJW values make sense. But big value has other
> disadvantage. If there is bigger jitter in Tx/Rx delays
> or clocks then it is propagated back to bit timing
> and stability of system composed from multiple nodes
> could be questionable. There is even bigger interval
> where noise pulse could cause lost of the synchronization.
> 
> On base of above analysis, I think that blindly set SJW
> on maximum is not good idea. It should be at least limited
> to 5% of bit time. 
> 
> Because bit timing calculation is not what everybody
> want to do again and again, the actual code tries
> to hide differences of CAN controllers and provide
> at least partially understandable knobs to user
> with parameters independent on concrete setup low level
> details to allow set bitrate for usual Joe user.
> The basic parameters are chosen such way, that user need
> not to care about actual TQ clock and selecting prescaller,
> that is why sampling point is in percent of bittime.
> SJW is more problematic, but may it be use of 2 or 5%
> of bittime by default with assurance that zero is
> replaced by one, would serve to most people pleasure.
> May it be, that 0.1 of percent should be used as unit
> for external parameter too.
> 
> I hope that actual calculation works reasonably well.
> But if it should be enhanced, then it would worth
> to add additional parameter except crystal/controller
> clock source freqency to the concrete boards drivers.
> It should be measured round-trip delay of given/used
> transceiver/optocouplers combination. This would
> allow to have sampling point setup yet more independent
> on given HW and same value could be used for different
> bitrates. But there is still unknown parameter
> capacity/length of connected wires so there is still
> something left to user consideration.

Thanks for your detailed explanation. It clearly shows that adjusting
SJW is non-trivial and nothing a normal CAN user should deal with. When
adjusting SJW, do you also need to tweek other bit-timing parameters,
e.g. tq? I mean, would "ip link set can0 type can bitrate x
sampling-point y sjw z" work for your setup or do you need to use the
expert mode setting via "ip link set can0 type can tq ..." anyway?

Wolfgang.
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