netdev - Re: [PATCH RFC 0/5] Containerize syslog

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Message-ID: <50C1FD9D.5020703@parallels.com>
Date:	Fri, 7 Dec 2012 18:30:53 +0400
From:	Glauber Costa <glommer@...allels.com>
To:	Serge Hallyn <serge.hallyn@...onical.com>
CC:	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Rui Xiang <leo.ruixiang@...il.com>, <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	<containers@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/5] Containerize syslog

On 12/07/2012 06:23 PM, Serge Hallyn wrote:
> Quoting Andrew Morton (akpm@...ux-foundation.org):
>> On Mon, 19 Nov 2012 01:51:09 -0800 ebiederm@...ssion.com (Eric W. Biederman) wrote:
>>
>>> Are there any kernel print statements besides networking stack printks
>>> that we want to move to show up in a new "kernel log" namespace?
>>
>> That's a good question, and afaict it remains unanswered.
> 
> There are some other (not *terribly* compelling) cases.  For instance
> selinux hooks, if you say mount an fs without xattr support or with
> unsupported options, will printk a warning.  Things like stat.c and
> capabilities and syslog print out warnings when userspace uses a
> deprecated somethingorother - old stat syscall or sys_syslog without
> CAP_SYSLOG.  That should go to the container.  Filesystems may give
> warnings (bad mount options for tmpfs, bad uid owner for many of them,
> etc) which belong in the container.  Obviously some belong on the host -
> if they show a corrupt superblock which may indicate an attempt by the
> container to crash the kernel.
> 
>> As so often happens, this patchset's changelogs forgot to describe the
>> reason for the existence of this patchset.  Via a bit of lwn reading
> 
> Not as a separate justification admittedly, but the description was
> meant to explain it:  right now /dev/kmsg and sys_syslog are not safe
> and useful in a container;  syslog messages from host and containers
> can be confusingly intermixed;  and helpful printks are not seen in
> the container.
> 
>> and my awesome telepathic skills, I divine that something in networking
>> is using syslog for kernel->userspace communications.
>>
>> wtf?
> 
> Well, syslog is the kernel->userspace channel of last resort.
> 
>> Wouldn't it be better to just stop doing that, and to implement a
>> respectable and reliable kernel->userspace messaging scheme?
> 
> Convenience functions on top of netlink?
> 
>> And leave syslog alone - it's a crude low-level thing for random
>> unexpected things which operators might want to know about.
> 
> That sentence is a result of not calling a container admin an operator.
> I can't argue it because I'm not sure whether to agree with that
> classification.
> 

I keep asking myself if it isn't the case of forwarding to a container
all messages printed in process context. That will obviously exclude all
messages resulting from kthreads - that will always be in the initial
namespace anyway, interrupts, etc. There is no harm, for instance, in
delivering the same message twice: one to the container, and the other
to the host system.

Isn't it natural that if the kernel printed something on behalf of a
process, whoever is the admin of the machine that process lives on
should see what it is about?

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