Message-ID: <20140326111031.GB31370@hmsreliant.think-freely.org>
Date:	Wed, 26 Mar 2014 07:10:31 -0400
From:	Neil Horman <nhorman@...driver.com>
To:	Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>
Cc:	Thomas Graf <tgraf@...g.ch>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
	Florian Fainelli <f.fainelli@...il.com>,
	netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, andy@...yhouse.net,
	dborkman@...hat.com, ogerlitz@...lanox.com, jesse@...ira.com,
	pshelar@...ira.com, azhou@...ira.com,
	Ben Hutchings <ben@...adent.org.uk>,
	Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>,
	jeffrey.t.kirsher@...el.com, vyasevic <vyasevic@...hat.com>,
	Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
	John Fastabend <john.r.fastabend@...el.com>,
	Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
	Scott Feldman <sfeldma@...ulusnetworks.com>,
	Lennert Buytenhek <buytenh@...tstofly.org>
Subject: Re: [patch net-next RFC 0/4] introduce infrastructure for support of
 switch chip datapath

On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 04:56:38PM -0400, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote:
> On 03/25/14 15:35, Neil Horman wrote:
> >On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 06:00:09PM +0000, Thomas Graf wrote:
> 
> >>How about a new device flag indicating pure L2 mode? Any L3 address
> >>configuration would fail with EAFNOSUPP.
> >>
> >Yeah, we've discussed that before, and it seems like a good idea, though I'm not
> >sure that its flexible enough.  It clearly prevents L3 operations on devices
> >that can only do L2, which is great, but that may not be sufficient for some
> >devices.  For example, what if you wanted to use ebtables on an L2 port where
> >the hardware can't mirror the actions of a given table rule?  Do we need to
> >expand out those capabilities?
> 
> There are two capability approaches.
> a) you do things and let the kernel reject
> b) You discover the capabilities and do something more interesting.
> We already do this kind of stuff in user tools today (simple example
> is name->ifindex mapping querying).
> 
> What is missing is ability to store richer capabilities which are not
> just boolean in nature.
> 
> 
> 
> >
> >Maybe I'm not being clear. I'm not suggesting that we abandon the use of a
> >net_device to do any of this work, only that we add a layer of indirection to
> >get to it.  By Augmenting the existing network device stack to allow
> >registration of net_devices to arbitrary lists, rather than to a fixes
> >per-net-namespace global device list, we can operate net_devices that are only
> >visible within the scope of a given switch fabric.  User space still works the
> >same way, it just requires the specification of additional information when
> >speaking to ports on a switch device that may not be directly accessible via the
> >cpu.  For example, if a systems has a directly connected nic (em1), and a switch
> >fabric with a master bridge port (sw1), and 10 external ports (sw1pX), we could
> >access them all from user space via ip link show.  for example:
> >
> >1) ip link show:
> >em1
> >sw1
> >
> >2) ip link show sw1
> >sw1
> >
> >3) ip link show -p sw1
> >sw1p0
> >sw1p1
> >sw1p2...
> >
> >
> >The idea is to augment user space to allow the visibiliy of ports through the
> >switch device, not directly, but using the same existing mechanisms.  We can
> >reuse all the existing infrastruture, but with this model, control must pass
> >through the switch device driver, allowing it to taylor available features by
> >passing the netlink request on to the appropriate netdevice, or sending back an
> >error itself.
> >
> 
> I think i am with you mostly - just not on the visibility of a "master"
> device.
> Expose the ports. Users create bridges bonds and if the hardware is
> capable it does the hard work to ensure consistency. No change in tools.
> 
But by creating net_devices that are registered in the current fashion we
implicitly agree to levels of functionality that are assumed to be available and
as such are not within the purview of a net_device to reject.  E.g. it is
assumed that a netdevice can filter frames using iptables/ebtables, limit
traffic using tc, etc. And if a switch fabric is short cutting traffic so that
the cpu doesn't see them, those bits of functionality won't work.  I agree we
can likely work around that with richer feature capabilities, but such an
infrastructure would both require extensive kernel changes to fully cover the
set of existing features at a sufficient granularity, and require user space
changes to grok the feature set of a given device.  Not saying its impossibible
or even undesireable mind you, just thats its not any less invasive than what
I'm proposing.

Neil

> cheers,
> jamal
> 
> 
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