Date:	Wed, 10 Sep 2014 08:46:34 +0200
From:	Tom Gundersen <teg@...m.no>
To:	"Luis R. Rodriguez" <mcgrof@...not-panic.com>
Cc:	James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com>,
	One Thousand Gnomes <gnomes@...rguk.ukuu.org.uk>,
	Takashi Iwai <tiwai@...e.de>, Kay Sievers <kay@...y.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@...hat.com>,
	Praveen Krishnamoorthy <praveen.krishnamoorthy@...gotech.com>,
	hare <hare@...e.com>,
	Nagalakshmi Nandigama <nagalakshmi.nandigama@...gotech.com>,
	Wu Zhangjin <falcon@...zu.com>,
	Tetsuo Handa <penguin-kernel@...ove.sakura.ne.jp>,
	"mpt-fusionlinux.pdl" <MPT-FusionLinux.pdl@...gotech.com>,
	Tim Gardner <tim.gardner@...onical.com>,
	Benjamin Poirier <bpoirier@...e.de>,
	Santosh Rastapur <santosh@...lsio.com>,
	Casey Leedom <leedom@...lsio.com>,
	Hariprasad S <hariprasad@...lsio.com>,
	Pierre Fersing <pierre-fersing@...rref.org>,
	Sreekanth Reddy <sreekanth.reddy@...gotech.com>,
	Arjan van de Ven <arjan@...ux.intel.com>,
	Abhijit Mahajan <abhijit.mahajan@...gotech.com>,
	systemd Mailing List <systemd-devel@...ts.freedesktop.org>,
	Linux SCSI List <linux-scsi@...r.kernel.org>,
	Dmitry Torokhov <dmitry.torokhov@...il.com>,
	"linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
	"netdev@...r.kernel.org" <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>,
	Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
	Joseph Salisbury <joseph.salisbury@...onical.com>
Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] [RFC v2 3/6] kthread: warn on kill signal if not OOM

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Luis R. Rodriguez
<mcgrof@...not-panic.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:35 PM, James Bottomley
> <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 2014-09-09 at 12:16 -0700, Luis R. Rodriguez wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 10:38 PM, James Bottomley
>>> <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com> wrote:
>>> > If we want to sort out some sync/async mechanism for probing devices, as
>>> > an agreement between the init systems and the kernel, that's fine, but
>>> > its a to-be negotiated enhancement.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately as Tejun notes the train has left which already made
>>> assumptions on this.
>>
>> Well, that's why it's a bug.  It's a material regression impacting
>> users.
>
> Indeed. I believe the issue with this regression however was that the
> original commit e64fae55 (January 2012) was only accepted by *kernel
> folks* to be a real regression until recently.

Just for the record, this only caused user-visible problems after
kernel commit 786235ee (November 2013), right?

> More than two years
> have gone by on growing design and assumptions on top of that original
> commit. I'm not sure if *systemd folks* yet believe its was a design
> regression?

I don't think so. udev should not allow its workers to run for an
unbounded length of time. Whether the upper bound should be 30, 60,
180 seconds or something else is up for debate (currently it is 60,
but if that is too short for some drivers we could certainly revisit
that). Moreover, it seems from this discussion that the aim is (still)
that insmod should be near-instantaneous (i.e., not wait for probe),
so it seems to me that the basic design is correct and all we need is
some temporary work-around and a way to better detect misbehaving
drivers?

>>>  I'm afraid distributions that want to avoid this
>>> sigkill at least on the kernel front will have to work around this
>>> issue either on systemd by increasing the default timeout which is now
>>> possible thanks to Hannes' changes or by some other means such as the
>>> combination of a modified non-chatty version of this patch + a check
>>> at the end of load_module() as mentioned earlier on these threads.
>>
>> Increasing the default timeout in systemd seems like the obvious bug fix
>> to me.  If the patch exists already, having distros that want it use it
>> looks to be correct ... not every bug is a kernel bug, after all.
>
> Its merged upstream on systemd now, along with a few fixes on top of
> it. I also see Kay merged a change to the default timeout to 60 second
> on August 30. Its unclear if these discussions had any impact on that
> decision or if that was just because udev firmware loading got now
> ripped out. I'll note that the new 60 second timeout wouldn't suffice
> for cxgb4 even if it didn't do firmware loading, its probe takes over
> one full minute.
>
>> Negotiating a probe vs init split for drivers is fine too, but it's a
>> longer term thing rather than a bug fix.
>
> Indeed. What I proposed with a multiplier for the timeout for the
> different types of built in commands was deemed complex but saw no
> alternatives proposed despite my interest to work on one and
> clarifications noted that this was a design regression. Not quite sure
> what else I could have done here. I'm interested in learning what the
> better approach is for the future as if we want to marry init + kernel
> we need a smooth way for us to discuss design without getting worked
> up about it, or taking it personal. I really want this to work as I
> personally like systemd so far.

How about this: keep the timeout global, but also introduce a
(relatively short, say 10 or 15 seconds) timeout after which a warning
is printed. Even if nothing is actually killed, having workers (be it
insmod or something else) take longer than a couple of seconds is
likely a sign that something is seriously off somewhere.

Cheers,

Tom
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