Message-ID: <20141127104445.GA8961@redhat.com>
Date:	Thu, 27 Nov 2014 12:44:45 +0200
From:	"Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:	Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>
Cc:	Willem de Bruijn <willemb@...gle.com>,
	Network Development <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
	Eric Dumazet <eric.dumazet@...il.com>,
	Daniel Borkmann <dborkman@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH rfc] packet: zerocopy packet_snd

On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 09:18:12AM +0008, Jason Wang wrote:
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 27, 2014 at 5:17 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@...hat.com> wrote:
> >On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 02:59:34PM -0500, Willem de Bruijn wrote:
> >> > The main problem with zero copy ATM is with queueing disciplines
> >> > which might keep the socket around essentially forever.
> >> > The case was described here:
> >> > https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/1/17/105
> >> > and of course this will make it more serious now that
> >> > more applications will be able to do this, so
> >> > chances that an administrator enables this
> >> > are higher.
> >> The denial of service issue raised there, that a single queue can
> >> block an entire virtio-net device, is less problematic in the case of
> >> packet sockets. A socket can run out of sk_wmem_alloc, but a prudent
> >> application can increase the limit or use separate sockets for
> >> separate flows.
> >
> >Socket per flow? Maybe just use TCP then?  increasing the limit
> >sounds like a wrong solution, it hurts security.
> >
> >> > One possible solution is some kind of timer orphaning frags
> >> > for skbs that have been around for too long.
> >>   Perhaps this can be approximated without an explicit timer by calling
> >> skb_copy_ubufs on enqueue whenever qlen exceeds a threshold value?
> >
> >Hard to say. Will have to see that patch to judge how robust this is.
> 
> This could not work, consider if the threshold is greater than vring size
> or vhost_net pending limit, transmission may still be blocked.

Well, application can e.g. just switch to non zero copy after
reaching a specific number of requests.
I think the real problem isn't reaching the queue full
condition, it's the fact a specific buffer might never
get freed. This API isn't half as useful as it could be
if applications had a way to force the memory
to be reclaimed.


And actually, I see a way for applications to reclaim the memory:
application could invoke something like MADV_SOFT_OFFLINE on the memory
submitted for zero copy transmit, to invalidate PTEs, and make next
access fault new pages in.
If dedicated memory is used for packets, you could even use
MADV_DONTNEED - but this doesn't work in many cases, certainly
not for virtualization type workloads.

Playting with PTEs needs to invalidate the TLB so it is not fast,
but it does not need to be: we are talking about ability to close the
socket, which should be rare.

For example, an application/hypervisor can detect a timeout when a
packet is not transmitted within a predefined time period, and trigger
such reclaim.
Making this period shorter than network watchdog timer of the VM
will ensure that watchdog does not trigger within VM.
Alternatively, VM network watchdog could trigger this reclaim
in order to recover packet memory.

With this idea, if application merely reads memory, we incur a lot of
overhead with pagefaults. So maybe a new call to enable COW for a range
of pages would be a good idea.


We'd have to make sure whatever's used for reclaim works for
a wide range of memory types: mmap-ed file, hugetlbfs, anonymous memory.


Thoughts?

-- 
MST
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