Message-ID: <5567FE44.4040403@cumulusnetworks.com>
Date:	Thu, 28 May 2015 22:51:00 -0700
From:	roopa <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com>
To:	Andy Gospodarek <gospo@...ulusnetworks.com>
CC:	Scott Feldman <sfeldma@...il.com>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
	john fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
	Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	Andy Gospodarek <andy@...yhouse.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net v2] switchdev: don't abort hardware ipv4 fib offload
 on failure to program fib entry in hardware

On 5/28/15, 3:35 PM, Andy Gospodarek wrote:
> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 08:40:11AM -0700, Scott Feldman wrote:
>> On Thu, May 28, 2015 at 2:42 AM, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us> wrote:
>>> Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:19:16PM CEST, davem@...emloft.net wrote:
>>>> From: Roopa Prabhu <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com>
>>>> Date: Sun, 17 May 2015 16:42:05 -0700
>>>>
>>>>> On most systems where you can offload routes to hardware,
>>>>> doing routing in software is not an option (the cpu limitations
>>>>> make routing impossible in software).
>>>> You absolutely do not get to determine this policy, none of us
>>>> do.
>>>>
>>>> What matters is that by default the damn switch device being there
>>>> is %100 transparent to the user.
>>>>
>>>> And the way to achieve that default is to do software routes as
>>>> a fallback.
>>>>
>>>> I am not going to entertain changes of this nature which fail
>>>> route loading by default just because we've exceeded a device's
>>>> HW capacity to offload.
>>>>
>>>> I thought I was _really_ clear about this at netdev 0.1
>>> I certainly agree that by default, transparency 1:1 sw:hw mapping is
>>> what we need for fib. The current code is a good start!
>>>
>>> I see couple of issues regarding switchdev_fib_ipv4_abort:
>>> 1) If user adds and entry, switchdev_fib_ipv4_add fails, abort is
>>>     executed -> and, error returned. I would expect that route entry should
>>>     be added in this case. The next attempt of adding the same entry will
>>>     be successful.
>>>     The current behaviour breaks the transparency you are reffering to.
>>> 2) When switchdev_fib_ipv4_abort happens to be executed, the offload is
>>>     disabled for good (until reboot). That is certainly not nice, alhough
>>>     I understand that is the easiest solution for now.
>>>
>>> I believe that we all agree that the 1:1 transparency, although it is a
>>> default, may not be optimal for real-life usage. HW resources are
>>> limited and user does not know them. The danger of hitting _abort and
>>> screwing-up the whole system is huge, unacceptable.
>>>
>>> So here, there are couple of more or less simple things that I suggest to
>>> do in order to move a little bit forward:
>>> 1) Introduce system-wide option to switch _abort to just plain fail.
>>>     When HW does not have capacity, do not flush and fallback to sw, but
>>>     rather just fail to add the entry. This would not break anything.
>>>     Userspace has to be prepared that entry add could fail.
>>> 2) Introduce a way to propagate resources to userspace. Driver knows about
>>>     resources used/available/potentially_available. Switchdev infra could
>>>     be extended in order to propagate the info to the user.
>>> 3) Introduce couple of flags for entry add that would alter the default
>>>     behaviour. Something like:
>>>          NLM_F_SKIP_KERNEL
>>>          NLM_F_SKIP_OFFLOAD
>>>     Again, this does not break the current users. On the other hand, this
>>>     gives new users a leverage to instruct kernel where the entry should
>>>     be added to (or not added to).
>>>
>>> Any thoughts? Objections?
>> I don't like these.  Breaks transparency and forces the user in a
>> position of having to know hardware failures modes (unique to each
>> hardware device).  I presented an option d) which avoids this issues;
>> was it not understood?
> I actually really like the way Jiri succinctly covered the different
> cases to move us forward from what we have today (Thanks, Jiri!).  I
> completely agree with you on both of your problem statements and the
> idea that what have is fine for the short-term.  I see definite room to
> improve the the user experience available via upstream kernels.
>
> Option 1 has appeal since userspace applications that control FDB, FIB,
> etc entries could work without modification (the when in this mode the
> kernel could choose to ignore any NLM_F_* flags Jiri proposed), but I
> agree that a system-wide (or maybe offload-device-wide?) configuration
> option needs to exist as this should not be the default behavior.

+1...i started with a sysctl for this as an example in my patch. But, 
instead of adding 10
different sysctls in different places, a switchdev policy infra/api and 
flags is due.

I have been planning to post a v3 of my patch with some of these policy 
flags.
>
> Option 2 could also work as userspace applications could query for
> space availability before attempting to add a route.  This could be
> nice during bootup as then apps could periodically double check that
> their view of the world is accurate.
>
> Option 3 also has appeal since there exists the ability to allow
> fine-grained control from userspace applications since less used routes
> (or routes that could be summarized) could be combined in userspace if
> needed.
>
> The great part about all suggestions is that when combined they can
> provide a great user experience, but doing all 3 at once is probably too
> aggressive.  My vote would be to see if we can work together on a
> combination of Option 1 and 3 together as they seem to provide a great
> first start to this...
>
> If an application tried to add a route (called A) to the route table
> in the kernel and code to support Option 1 existed (similar to what
> Roopa posted to start this series) then the kernel could fail to add
> route A.
>
> If the user noted that some other route (called B) was lower priority
> for _any_ reason, the user could delete route B from the kernel and
> hardware and add route A to hardware and kernel.  Then the user could
> make a call to add route B with the flag 'NLM_F_SKIP_OFFLOAD' which
> would tell the kernel not to perform a FIB offload of that route.
+1, that was the exact intent of the flow of my options a), b), c).
thanks for putting it in an example!
> Now we have some routes in the table that will be offloaded to hardware
> and software and some that will be handled only in software -- as long
> as the user has explicitly enabled some sort of offload option.
>
> The lingering question in my mind is, what interface do we use to
> configure it....
>

I have been thinking of switchdev infra specific netlink attributes and 
APIs for v3.
This will also contain resource/capability query attributes (Need to 
check how this aligns or can be replaced by
JohnF's resource query/capability api's. And also how this fits with 
rocker). I am hoping to come up with a v3 (RFC) soon.

thanks.
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