Date:	Wed, 03 Jun 2015 08:44:49 -0700
From:	roopa <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com>
To:	Scott Feldman <sfeldma@...il.com>
CC:	Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>,
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
	Toshiaki Makita <makita.toshiaki@....ntt.co.jp>,
	Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	Jiří Pírko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
	"simon.horman@...ronome.com" <simon.horman@...ronome.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 5/5] rocker: remove support for legacy VLAN ndo
 ops

On 6/2/15, 12:01 PM, Scott Feldman wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 9:58 AM, roopa <roopa@...ulusnetworks.com> wrote:
>> On 6/2/15, 7:30 AM, Scott Feldman wrote:
>>> On Tue, Jun 2, 2015 at 4:43 AM, Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com> wrote:
>>>> On 06/02/15 03:10, Scott Feldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Actually, we're now consistent with bridge man page which says master
>>>>> is the default.
>>>>>
>>>>> Want we want, I believe, is to adjust what the man page says (and the
>>>>> bridge vlan command itself), by making the default master and self.
>>>>> The kernel and driver are fine, it's the default in the bridge command
>>>>> that needs adjusting.  Once we do this, we'll be back to transparent
>>>>> with software-only bridge.
>>>>>
>>>> Question to ask when looking at something of this nature:
>>>> Will it work with no suprises if you used today's unmodified app?
>>>> The default behavior shouldnt change and unfortunately it does here.
>>> The default behavior does change, yes, but there shouldn't be any
>>> surprises even if using today's unmodified app.  The reason why is no
>>> in-kernel driver is using ndo_bridge_setlink for VLAN setup.  The
>>> three drivers that have ndo_bridge_setlink use if to set hwmode to
>>> VEBA|VEB.  For VLAN setup, they use the (default master) bridge's
>>> ndo_bridge_setlink->ndo_vlan_rx_add_vid.  If the default changes from
>>> master to master|self, the bridge's
>>> ndo_bridge_setlink->ndo_vlan_rx_add_vid is still called for those
>>> driver's using ndo_vlan_rx_add_vid, and if they implement
>>> ndo_bridge_setlink, they'll get called a second time but will noop
>>> because there will be no IFLA_BRIDGE_MODE (hwmode) attr to process.
>>>
>>> So it comes down to two choices:
>>>
>>> 1) break ABI, which is inconsequential for in-kernel drivers and
>>> preserve (iproute2) command transparency, or
>>>
>>> 2) embrace existing behavior which is consistent with man pages but
>>> breaks command transparency for any driver implementing
>>> ndo_bridge_setlink for VLAN setup, which currently is just rocker.  I
>>> can see the DSA going down this path also based on another concurrent
>>> thread.
>>>
>>> We're at option 2) right now.
>>>
>>>> It is not just iproute2 - since this is breaking ABI expectations.
>>>> Looking at some app i wrote a while back based on analyzing kernel
>>>> expectations at the time, I see the following logic:
>>>>
>>>> user can set master or self on command line.
>>>> ...
>>>> ....
>>>> if (user DID NOT set master_on || user set self on)
>>>>      then set self to on
>>>>
>>>> iow, current behavior:
>>>>    01: master is only set if user explicitly asked.
>>>>    11: master|self when user explicitly sets both
>>>>    10: self is on by default when the user doesnt specify anything
>>>>    00: and the last option is to have none set which is not
>>>>        possible since we have defaults.
>>>>
>>>> cheers,
>>>> jamal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So this is very similar to iproute2 - if nothing is set
>>>> it defaults to self.
>>> Ha, you're giving the behavior for "bridge fdb" command, where self is
>>> the default.
>>
>> Oh...i did not realize this was the case either. Thats unfortunate.
>>
>>> For "bridge link" and "bridge vlan", the default is master.  The user
>>> must explicitly specify "self" to act on the device side of the port.
>>>
>>> It's unfortunate the iproute2 defaults aren't consistent between
>>> commands.  Maybe someone knows the history here and can explain.
>>>
>>>
>> scott, this brings back the discussion you and i had over the revert of my
>> patches.. (commit id's at the end of this email)...
>> which used to seamlessly offload to switchdev from bridge driver if the port
>> was a switch port (similar to stp state offload).
> Your patch tried to do the same thing that the bridge's
> ndo_bridge_setlink/dellink is doing which is using the handler for
> MASTER to also set SELF stuff, when SELF was not specified.  I don't
> feel we should be overriding the application defaults in the kernel;
> instead, we should change the application if we want different
> behavior.  The kernel should treat the two sides of the port
> independent (that's the basic algo in rtnetlink.c handlers for
> MASTER/SELF things).  When you start doing kernel SELF things in the
> MASTER path, the application has lost the ability to address each side
> of the port independently.
>
>> 'self' used to exist before switchdev infra came in. My suggestion was to
>> use it where required...but not build the switchdev api on the presence of
>> 'self'. switchdev layer should be consistent across...all fib/fdb/neigh
>> layers.
> I don't understand why you're bringing up fib/neigh because there is
> no master|self form for those.
>
> The master|self objects are bridge fdb, settings, and vlans.  To be
> clear, they are PF_BRIDGE handlers for:
>
> PF_BRIDGE:RTM_NEWNEIGH: add fdb entry
> PF_BRIDGE:RTM_DELNEIGH: del fdb entry
> PF_BRIDGE:RTM_SETLINK: set bridge setting or add VLAN
> PF_BRIDGE:RTM_DELLINK: del VLAN
>
> The net/core/rtnetlink.c code for these _is_ consistent right now.
> They all perform this same basic algorithm:
>
>      handler()
>          if (!flags || flags & MASTER)
>              if (master && master->op->foo)
>                  master->op->foo();
>          if (flags & SELF)
>              if (port->op->foo)
>                  port->op->foo();
>
> This lets the application set MASTER and/or SELF to address one or
> both sides of the port.  The kernel only provides the mechanism; the
> application decides which sides to address.
>
> Where we got into trouble is in the case of
> PF_BRIDGE:RTM_SETLINK/RTM_DELLINK where the master->op->foo handler
> calls into the member port's ndo_vlan_rx_add_vid(), which is really a
> SELF operation because it's setting the VLAN for the device-side of
> the port.  Setting the VLAN on the device side should have only been
> done if SELF was specified.  Too bad it didn't work out this way; now
> we have to live with that legacy.  Your setlink/dellink patches tried
> to do the same thing, which is to set the SELF side of the port
> settings when SELF was not specified.  If those patches went in, we'd
> be stuck there as well.  Your change said if application sets MASTER
> (or nothing), the kernel treats it as MASTER|SELF.
I understand what you are saying.
But, the way i see it is, master/self was the old way of doing l2 offload.
It completely bypassed the bridge driver. It existed before switchdev.
And I was hoping we don't carry over that notion when we are doing 
offloads the new way.
ie involve the bridge driver. Bridge driver owns the vlan config/stp 
states etc and pushes it to hardware.
We handle rollbacks, error policies from withing the bridge driver.
This is the switchdev offload model. We started with this.

And, we did not want to break existing drivers/or apps and also have the 
option of doing offloads the old way or allow going directly to the 
switchdev driver for some attributes. So, we allowed that (and my 
patches also made sure those were not broken).

But somewhere along the way...., with the past few commits...we are 
designing switchdev offload apis around 'self|master' ie the old way of 
doing things. That is my only concern.

Also, it seems a bit inconsistent...
- stp states are offloaded from within the bridge driver but not vlans 
and other port config
- I bring up fib all the time because, the switchdev offload api design 
should be consistent with the offload api across
rest of the subsystems

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