netdev - Re: [PATCH net-next 3/4] bpf: add support for persistent maps/progs

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Message-ID: <56268BA3.8020705@plumgrid.com>
Date:	Tue, 20 Oct 2015 11:44:51 -0700
From:	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...mgrid.com>
To:	Hannes Frederic Sowa <hannes@...essinduktion.org>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
	"Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@...ssion.com>
Cc:	davem@...emloft.net, viro@...IV.linux.org.uk, tgraf@...g.ch,
	netdev@...r.kernel.org, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
	Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 3/4] bpf: add support for persistent maps/progs

On 10/20/15 3:07 AM, Hannes Frederic Sowa wrote:
> <off-topic>
> Just a pretty obvious idea is accurate sampling of flows.
> </off-topic>

ok, so you want to time out flows. Makes sense, but it should be
done by user space with little or none help from the kernel.

> fdinfo tells me where my position in a file is and which locks the file
> have?

obviously not. see the example fdinfo from the other email.

> So far, if someone wants to delve into the details of a map my approach
> would be to take the file descriptor and make it persistence. I have to
> think about that some more.

nope. you cannot do that. admin should never interfere with running
process this way.

> Yes, absolutely and I am absolutely against pretty printing key values
> in kernel domain.

let's table that part. I think it can be useful, but it's
irrelevant for this discussion.

> So cat-ing them will produce text output with some details about the
> map? This is what I wanted to avoid. The concept with symlinks and small
> files seems much cleaner and nicer to me. Also you cannot add writable
> attributes to this filesystem or you overload stuff heavily?

nope. no writeable stuff. fdinfo is read-only.

> It is not a tree but a graph, sure, that's why sysfs allows to break the
> cyclic dependencies and create symlinks (see holders/ directories). ;)

that's an obvious example of another resource waste.
You can do that for real devices, but for thousands of maps and programs
it is really a waste.

> And if you implement the same set of features IMHO you basically
> re-implement sysfs. In the beginning we just expose the basic maps and
> there won't be any features in sysfs, but it will be cheap to have
> read/write flags on maps etc. etc. (I don't know what people will come
> up with, yet.). In my opinion those are clearly attributes of a map and
> should be defined and managed alongside with their holders.

nope. bpf syscall is the only interface to access maps.
if we expose them in bpffs it will be read-only for debugging only.

> The pinfd feature will provide the future infrastructure alongside to
> make this usable, so I think it is worth spending time to think about
> it.

yes. but since we're going in circles, let's have a 'beer call' to
resolve it :)

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