netdev - Re: [PATCH v4 1/4] Produce system time from correlated clocksource

lists.openwall.net		lists / announce owl-users owl-dev john-users john-dev passwdqc-users yescrypt popa3d-users / oss-security kernel-hardening musl sabotage tlsify passwords / crypt-dev xvendor / Bugtraq Full-Disclosure linux-kernel linux-netdev linux-ext4 linux-hardening linux-cve-announce PHC
Open Source and information security mailing list archives

Hash Suite: Windows password security audit tool. GUI, reports in PDF.

[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [thread-next>] [day] [month] [year] [list]

Message-ID: <CALAqxLWi-qGH8nXV75eunSArqMdiib0Q7kVdZTD6q-uDNp6q0w@mail.gmail.com>
Date:	Mon, 9 Nov 2015 13:17:38 -0800
From:	John Stultz <john.stultz@...aro.org>
To:	"Stanton, Kevin B" <kevin.b.stanton@...el.com>
Cc:	Richard Cochran <richardcochran@...il.com>,
	Thomas Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>,
	"Hall, Christopher S" <christopher.s.hall@...el.com>,
	"Kirsher, Jeffrey T" <jeffrey.t.kirsher@...el.com>,
	"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@...or.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@...hat.com>,
	Peter Zijlstra <peterz@...radead.org>,
	"x86@...nel.org" <x86@...nel.org>,
	"intel-wired-lan@...ts.osuosl.org" <intel-wired-lan@...ts.osuosl.org>,
	"netdev@...r.kernel.org" <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
	lkml <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 1/4] Produce system time from correlated clocksource

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Stanton, Kevin B
<kevin.b.stanton@...el.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015, Thomas Gleixner wrote:
>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015, John Stultz wrote:
>>> Being able to have various hardware sharing a time base is quite
>>> useful, and methods for correlating timestamps together are useful.
>>> But I don't yet really understand why its important that we can
>>> translate a hardware timestamp from some time in the past to the
>>> correct system time in the past without error.
>
>>If your device can only provide timestamps from the past, then
>>having access to the history is important if you want to have
>>precise correlation.
>
> I hope this can be solved in timekeeping. But first, a quick
> recap...
>
> The timestamp pair (including the ART snapshot, as described
> previously) is captured simultaneously by the hardware
> resulting, effectively, in a (PTP,TSC) pair, or
> (AudioPosition,TSC) pair. The in-the-past-TSC value needs to be
> converted to system time so that it can be used by applications,
> without exposing the underlying ART or TSC.
>
> Note: ART is architectural, defined as part of Invariant
> Timekeeping in the current SDM, so this isn't a one-off
> capability.
>
> To convert a past TSC timestamp to system time 'correctly' (in a
> mathematical sense), a history of monotonic rate adjustments
> since that time in the past must be maintained.

But again, my main problem is that I'm not totally understanding the rational.
Here you're providing the *what*, not really the *why*.

As I mentioned earlier, there are possibly simpler (at least for the
kernel) ways to generate similar data using CLOCK_MONOTONIC_RAW, which
has potentially a 500ppm error. *Why* is it important to add more
complexity to the timekeeping core in order to avoid that error?

> Regarding the amount of history, as Chris mentioned (and
> in the context of new Intel hardware) LAN timestamp pairs are
> a few microseconds in the past (no history would be required),
> but for timestamps captured by the audio DSP, unfortunately,
> they can be a small number of *milliseconds* in the past by the
> time they're available to the audio driver (some history
> required to convert accurately). I'm told that 4ms of adjustment
> history accommodates known hardware.

For a timestamp recorded 4ms ago, 500ppm of error is 2us. Why is 2us
problematic for audio? That seems quite below the human threshold to
notice.

> Getting this 'correct' in one place (timekeeping) seems a lot
> better than unnecessarily introducing inaccuracy via software
> sampling (and extrapolation) or leaving it to each driver to do
> it themselves, and to do it differently (and/or do it wrongly).

Having a common infrastructure for extrapolating the data isn't
something I'm objecting to.  Its just that the shadow-timekeeper has
been problematic enough in recent times bug wise, so I'm just hesitant
to expand the complexity there. That said, I'm open to ideas, but
would really like a better understanding of why other solutions would
be insufficient, and why this one is the best solution.

thanks
-john
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe netdev" in
the body of a message to majordomo@...r.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html