Message-ID: <151DF165-61A2-428A-BD24-04E7704F9724@intel.com>
Date:   Tue, 13 Sep 2016 22:41:12 +0000
From:   "Rustad, Mark D" <mark.d.rustad@...el.com>
To:     Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>
CC:     Eric Dumazet <eric.dumazet@...il.com>,
        Tom Herbert <tom@...bertland.com>,
        Brenden Blanco <bblanco@...mgrid.com>,
        Linux Kernel Network Developers <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        intel-wired-lan <intel-wired-lan@...ts.osuosl.org>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@...hat.com>,
        Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
        "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        William Tu <u9012063@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [Intel-wired-lan] [net-next PATCH v3 2/3] e1000: add initial
 XDP support

Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 07:14:27PM +0000, Rustad, Mark D wrote:
>> Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 06:28:03PM +0000, Rustad, Mark D wrote:
>>>> Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I've looked through qemu and it appears only emulate e1k and tg3.
>>>>> The latter is still used in the field, so the risk of touching
>>>>> it is higher.
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea what makes you think that e1k is *not* "used in the  
>>>> field".
>>>> I grant you it probably is used more virtualized than not these days,
>>>> but it
>>>> certainly exists and is used. You can still buy them new at Newegg for
>>>> goodness sakes!
>>>
>>> the point that it's only used virtualized, since PCI (not PCIE) have
>>> been long dead.
>>
>> My point is precisely the opposite. It is a real device, it exists in real
>> systems and it is used in those systems. I worked on embedded systems that
>> ran Linux and used e1000 devices. I am sure they are still out there  
>> because
>> customers are still paying for support of those systems.
>>
>> Yes, PCI(-X) is absent from any current hardware and has been for some  
>> years
>> now, but there is an installed base that continues. What part of that
>> installed base updates software? I don't know, but I would not just assume
>> that it is 0. I know that I updated the kernel on those embedded systems
>> that I worked on when I was supporting them. Never at the bleeding edge,  
>> but
>> generally hopping from one LTS kernel to another as needed.
>
> I suspect modern linux won't boot on such old pci only systems for other
> reasons not related to networking, since no one really cares to test  
> kernels there.

Actually it does boot, because although the motherboard was PCIe, the slots  
and the adapters in them were PCI-X. So the core architecture was not so  
stale.

> So I think we mostly agree. There is chance that this xdp e1k code will
> find a way to that old system. What are the chances those users will
> be using xdp there? I think pretty close to zero.

For sure they wouldn't be using XDP, but they could suffer regressions in a  
changed driver that might find its way there. That is the risk.

> The pci-e nics integrated into motherboards that pretend to be tg3
> (though they're not at all build by broadcom) are significantly more  
> common.
> That's why I picked e1k instead of tg3.

That may be true (I really don't know anything about tg3 so I certainly  
can't dispute it), so the risk could be smaller with e1k, but there is  
still a regression risk for real existing hardware. That is my concern.

> Also note how this patch is not touching anything in the main e1k path
> (because I don't have a hw to test and I suspect Intel's driver team
> doesn't have it either) to make sure there is no breakage on those
> old systems. I created separate e1000_xmit_raw_frame() routine
> instead of adding flags into e1000_xmit_frame() for the same reasons:
> to make sure there is no breakage.
> Same reasoning for not doing an union of page/skb as Alexander suggested.
> I wanted minimal change to e1k that allows development xdp programs in kvm
> without affecting e1k main path. If you see the actual bug in the patch,
> please point out the line.

I can't say that I can, because I am not familiar with the internals of  
e1k. When I was using it, I never had cause to even look at the driver  
because it just worked. My attentions then were properly elsewhere.

My concern is with messing with a driver that probably no one has an active  
testbed routinely running regression tests.

Maybe a new ID should be assigned and the driver forked for this purpose.  
At least then only the virtualization case would have to be tested. Of  
course the hosts would have to offer that ID, but if this is just for  
testing that should be ok, or at least possible.

If someone with more internal knowledge of this driver has enough  
confidence to bless such patches, that might be fine, but it is a fallacy  
to think that e1k is *only* a virtualization driver today. Not yet anyway.  
Maybe around 2020.

That said, I can see that you have tried to keep the original code path  
pretty much intact. I would note that you introduced rcu calls into the  
!bpf path that would never have been done before. While that should be ok,  
I would really like to see it tested, at least for the !bpf case, on real  
hardware to be sure. I really can't comment on the workaround issue brought  
up by Eric, because I just don't know about them. At least that risk seems  
to only be in the bpf case.

--
Mark Rustad, Networking Division, Intel Corporation

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