Date:   Thu, 8 Dec 2016 22:58:52 +0200
From:   "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:     John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>
Cc:     Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, daniel@...earbox.net,
        shm@...ulusnetworks.com, tgraf@...g.ch, john.r.fastabend@...el.com,
        netdev@...r.kernel.org, brouer@...hat.com
Subject: Re: [net-next PATCH v5 0/6] XDP for virtio_net

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 12:46:07PM -0800, John Fastabend wrote:
> On 16-12-08 11:38 AM, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> > On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:17:02PM -0500, David Miller wrote:
> >> From: John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>
> >> Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2016 12:10:47 -0800
> >>
> >>> This implements virtio_net for the mergeable buffers and big_packet
> >>> modes. I tested this with vhost_net running on qemu and did not see
> >>> any issues. For testing num_buf > 1 I added a hack to vhost driver
> >>> to only but 100 bytes per buffer.
> >>  ...
> >>
> >> So where are we with this?
> 
> There is one possible issue with a hang that Michael pointed out. I can
> either spin a v6 or if you pull this v5 series in I can post a bugfix
> for it. I am not seeing the issue in practice XDP virtio has been up
> and running on my box here for days without issue.


I'd prefer it fixed. Alternatively, apply just 1-3 for now.

> All the concerns below are really future XDP ideas and unrelated to
> this series or at least not required for this series to applied IMO.
> 
> >>
> >> I'm not too thrilled with the idea of making XDP_TX optional or
> >> something like that.  If someone enables XDP, there is a tradeoff.
> >>
> >> I also have reservations about the idea to make jumbo frames work
> >> without giving XDP access to the whole packet.  If it wants to push or
> >> pop a header, it might need to know the whole packet length.  How will
> >> you pass that to the XDP program?
> >>
> >> Some kinds of encapsulation require trailers, thus preclusing access
> >> to the entire packet precludes those kinds of transformations.
> > 
> > +1
> 
> This was sort of speculative on my side it is certainly not dependent on
> the series here. I agree that we don't want to get into a state where
> program X runs here and not there and only runs after doing magic
> incantations, etc. I would only propose it if there is a clean way to
> implement this.
> 
> > 
> >> This is why we want simple, linear, buffer access for XDP.
> >>
> >> Even the most seemingly minor exception turns into a huge complicated
> >> mess.
> > 
> > +1
> 
> Yep.
> 
> > 
> > and from the other thread:
> >>> Can't we disable XDP_TX somehow? Many people might only want RX drop,
> >>> and extra queues are not always there.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Alexei, Daniel, any thoughts on this?
> > 
> > I don't like it.
> > 
> 
> OK alternatively we can make more queues available in virtio which might
> be the better solution.
> 
> >> I know we were trying to claim some base level of feature support for
> >> all XDP drivers. I am sympathetic to this argument though for DDOS we
> >> do not need XDP_TX support. And virtio can become queue constrained
> >> in some cases.
> > 
> > especially for ddos case doing lro/gro is not helpful.
> 
> Fair enough but disabling LRO to handle the case where you "might" get
> a DDOS will hurt normal good traffic.
> 
> > I frankly don't see a use case where you'd want to steer a packet
> > all the way into VM just to drop them there?
> 
> VM to VM traffic is my use case. And in that model we need XDP at the
> virtio or vhost layer in case of malicious/broke/untrusted VM. I have
> some vhost patches under development for when net-next opens up again.
> 
> > Without XDP_TX it's too crippled. adjust_head() won't be possible,
> 
> Just a nit but any reason not to support adjust_head and then XDP_PASS.
> I don't have a use case in mind but also see no reason to preclude it.
> 
> > packet mangling would have to be disabled and so on.
> > If xdp program doesn't see raw packet it can only parse the headers of
> > this jumbo meta-packet and drop it, but for virtio it's really too late.
> > ddos protection needs to be done at the earliest hw nic receive.
> 
> VM to VM traffic never touches hw nic.
> 
> > I think if driver claims xdp support it needs to support
> > drop/pass/tx and adjust_head. For metadata passing up into stack from xdp
> > we need adjust_head, for encap/decap we need it too. And lro is in the way
> > of such transformations.
> > We struggled a lot with cls_bpf due to all metadata inside skb that needs
> > to be kept correct. Feeding non-raw packets into xdp is a rat hole.
> > 
> 
> In summary:
> 
> I think its worth investigating getting LRO working but agree we can't
> sacrifice any of the existing features or complicate the code to do it.
> If the result of investigating is it can't be done then that is how it
> is.
> 
> Jumbo frames I care very little about in reality so should not have
> mentioned it.
> 
> Requiring XDP drivers to support all features is fine for me I can make
> the virtio queue scheme a bit more flexible. Michael might have some
> opinion on this though.
> 
> This series shouldn't be blocked by any of the above.
> 
> Thanks,
> .John

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