Date:   Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:35:46 +0800
From:   Xin Long <lucien.xin@...il.com>
To:     Marcelo Ricardo Leitner <marcelo.leitner@...il.com>
Cc:     David Laight <David.Laight@...lab.com>,
        network dev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        "linux-sctp@...r.kernel.org" <linux-sctp@...r.kernel.org>,
        Neil Horman <nhorman@...driver.com>,
        Vlad Yasevich <vyasevich@...il.com>,
        "davem@...emloft.net" <davem@...emloft.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 2/2] sctp: add support for MSG_MORE

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 1:33 AM, Marcelo Ricardo Leitner
<marcelo.leitner@...il.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 02:07:37PM +0000, David Laight wrote:
>> From: Marcelo Ricardo Leitner [mailto:marcelo.leitner@...il.com]
>> > Sent: 21 March 2017 22:04
>> > Hi,
>> ...
>> > > > 2. send 1 more chunk with MSG_MORE clear, the queue is:
>> > > >   chk4[clear] -> chk3 [clear] -> chk2 [clear] -> chk1 [clear]
>> > >
>> > > I don't think processing the entire queue is a good idea.
>> > > Both from execution time and the effects on the data cache.
>> >
>> > It won't be processing the entire queue if not needed, and it will only
>> > process it on the last sendmsg() call. As the list is double-linked, it
>> > can walk backwards as necessary and stop just at the right point.  So
>> > this doesn't imply on any quadratic or exponential factor here, but
>> > linear and only if/when finishing the MSG_MORE block.
>> >
>> > If the application is not using MSG_MORE, impact is zero.
>> >
>> > > The SCTP code is horrid enough as it is.
>> > >
>> > > > 3. then if user send more small chunks with MSG_MORE set,
>> > > > the queue is like:
>> > > >   chkB[set] -> chkA[set] -> chk4[clear] -> chk3 [clear] -> chk2 [clear] -> chk1 [clear]
>> > > > so that the new small chunks' flag will not affect the other chunks bundling.
>> > >
>> > > That isn't really necessary.
>> > > The user can't expect to have absolute control over which chunks get bundled
>> > > together.
>> >
>> > So...?
>> > I mean, I'm okay with that but that doesn't explain why we can't do as
>> > Xin proposed on previous email here.
>> >
>> > > If the above chunks still aren't big enough to fill a frame the code might
>> > > as well wait for the next chunk instead of building a packet that contains
>> > > chk1 through to chkB.
>> >
>> > Our expectations are the same and that's what the proposed solution also
>> > achieves, no?
>>
>> Not really.
>>
>> > > Remember you'll only get a queued chunk with MSG_MORE clear if data can't be sent.
>> > > As soon as data can be sent, if the first chunk has MSG_MORE clear all of the
>> > > queued chunks will be sent.
>> >
>> > With the fix proposed by Xin, this would be more like: ... all of the
>> > _non-held_ chunks will be sent.
>> > After all, application asked to hold them, for whatever reason it had.
>>
>> You are mis-understanding what I think MSG_MORE is for.
>> It isn't the application saying 'don't send this packet', but rather
>> 'there is no point sending ANY data because I've more data to send'.
>
> I see the difference now, thanks.
>
>> There is also the inference that the application will immediately
>> send the next piece of data.
>>
>> So it isn't a property of the queued chunk, it is an indication that
>> the application is going to send more data immediately.
>
> It would basically avoid sending the chunk immediately when inflight==0
> and the rest could stay as is then.
> As the application is supposed to send more data immediately and clear
> the flag, we can send packets as they become full, and also let normal
> Nagle processing be. TCP also has a ceiling on this waiting, 200ms
> according to man 7 tcp/TCP_CORK.
>
>>
>> > > So immediately after your (3) the application is expected to send a chunk
>> > > with MSG_MORE clear - at that point all the queued chunks can be sent in
>> > > a single packet.
>> >
>> > Yes. Isn't that the idea?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > So just save the last MSG_MORE on the association as I did.
>> >
>> > I don't see the reason to change that. Your reply seem to reject the
>> > idea but I cannot get the reason why. The solution proposed is more
>> > complex, yes, allows more control, yes, but those aren't real issues
>> > here.
>>
>> I think you are trying to provide control of chunking that is neither
>> necessary nor desirable and may give a false indication of what it
>> might be sensible for the application to have control over.
>
> Agreed.
>
>>
>> Regardless of the MSG_MORE flags associated with any specific send()
>> request there will always be protocol effects (like retransmissions
>> or flow control 'on') that will generate different 'chunking'.
>
> Yes, those are the ones that may lead to some confusion on how it
> actually works, and mangling them is not really desired for the
> sideeffects that it might have.
>
> Sooner or later we could have bug reports like "hey this chunk shouldn't
> have been packed with that." if we stick with the initial proposition,
> while with David's view, we are only promising to not send packets with
> a single chunk and as long as the application send more data fast enough.
>
> David, are we on the same page now? ;-)
>
> Xin, what do you think?
If we insist that MSG_MORE means not to send  ANY data, I compromise.
does ANY include retransmission DATA? should MSG_MORE block
retransmission ?

>
>   Marcelo
>

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