Date:   Fri, 1 Dec 2017 07:13:00 +0200
From:   "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:     Jakub Kicinski <jakub.kicinski@...ronome.com>
Cc:     Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>,
        Jesse Brandeburg <jesse.brandeburg@...el.com>,
        virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org,
        Sridhar Samudrala <sridhar.samudrala@...el.com>,
        Achiad <achiad@...lanox.com>,
        Peter Waskiewicz Jr <peter.waskiewicz.jr@...el.com>,
        "Singhai, Anjali" <anjali.singhai@...el.com>,
        Andy Gospodarek <gospo@...adcom.com>,
        Or Gerlitz <gerlitz.or@...il.com>,
        netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        Hannes Frederic Sowa <hannes@...essinduktion.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC] virtio-net: help live migrate SR-IOV devices

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 12:48:22PM -0800, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 15:54:40 +0200, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 29, 2017 at 07:51:38PM -0800, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> > > On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 11:29:56 +0800, Jason Wang wrote:  
> > > > On 2017年11月29日 03:27, Jesse Brandeburg wrote:  
> > > > > Hi, I'd like to get some feedback on a proposal to enhance virtio-net
> > > > > to ease configuration of a VM and that would enable live migration of
> > > > > passthrough network SR-IOV devices.
> > > > >
> > > > > Today we have SR-IOV network devices (VFs) that can be passed into a VM
> > > > > in order to enable high performance networking direct within the VM.
> > > > > The problem I am trying to address is that this configuration is
> > > > > generally difficult to live-migrate.  There is documentation [1]
> > > > > indicating that some OS/Hypervisor vendors will support live migration
> > > > > of a system with a direct assigned networking device.  The problem I
> > > > > see with these implementations is that the network configuration
> > > > > requirements that are passed on to the owner of the VM are quite
> > > > > complicated.  You have to set up bonding, you have to configure it to
> > > > > enslave two interfaces, those interfaces (one is virtio-net, the other
> > > > > is SR-IOV device/driver like ixgbevf) must support MAC address changes
> > > > > requested in the VM, and on and on...
> > > > >
> > > > > So, on to the proposal:
> > > > > Modify virtio-net driver to be a single VM network device that
> > > > > enslaves an SR-IOV network device (inside the VM) with the same MAC
> > > > > address. This would cause the virtio-net driver to appear and work like
> > > > > a simplified bonding/team driver.  The live migration problem would be
> > > > > solved just like today's bonding solution, but the VM user's networking
> > > > > config would be greatly simplified.
> > > > >
> > > > > At it's simplest, it would appear something like this in the VM.
> > > > >
> > > > > ==========
> > > > > = vnet0  =
> > > > >           =============
> > > > > (virtio- =       |
> > > > >   net)    =       |
> > > > >           =  ==========
> > > > >           =  = ixgbef =
> > > > > ==========  ==========
> > > > >
> > > > > (forgive the ASCII art)
> > > > >
> > > > > The fast path traffic would prefer the ixgbevf or other SR-IOV device
> > > > > path, and fall back to virtio's transmit/receive when migrating.
> > > > >
> > > > > Compared to today's options this proposal would
> > > > > 1) make virtio-net more sticky, allow fast path traffic at SR-IOV
> > > > >     speeds
> > > > > 2) simplify end user configuration in the VM (most if not all of the
> > > > >     set up to enable migration would be done in the hypervisor)
> > > > > 3) allow live migration via a simple link down and maybe a PCI
> > > > >     hot-unplug of the SR-IOV device, with failover to the virtio-net
> > > > >     driver core
> > > > > 4) allow vendor agnostic hardware acceleration, and live migration
> > > > >     between vendors if the VM os has driver support for all the required
> > > > >     SR-IOV devices.
> > > > >
> > > > > Runtime operation proposed:
> > > > > - <in either order> virtio-net driver loads, SR-IOV driver loads
> > > > > - virtio-net finds other NICs that match it's MAC address by
> > > > >    both examining existing interfaces, and sets up a new device notifier
> > > > > - virtio-net enslaves the first NIC with the same MAC address
> > > > > - virtio-net brings up the slave, and makes it the "preferred" path
> > > > > - virtio-net follows the behavior of an active backup bond/team
> > > > > - virtio-net acts as the interface to the VM
> > > > > - live migration initiates
> > > > > - link goes down on SR-IOV, or SR-IOV device is removed
> > > > > - failover to virtio-net as primary path
> > > > > - migration continues to new host
> > > > > - new host is started with virio-net as primary
> > > > > - if no SR-IOV, virtio-net stays primary
> > > > > - hypervisor can hot-add SR-IOV NIC, with same MAC addr as virtio
> > > > > - virtio-net notices new NIC and starts over at enslave step above
> > > > >
> > > > > Future ideas (brainstorming):
> > > > > - Optimize Fast east-west by having special rules to direct east-west
> > > > >    traffic through virtio-net traffic path
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks for reading!
> > > > > Jesse    
> > > > 
> > > > Cc netdev.
> > > > 
> > > > Interesting, and this method is actually used by netvsc now:
> > > > 
> > > > commit 0c195567a8f6e82ea5535cd9f1d54a1626dd233e
> > > > Author: stephen hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>
> > > > Date:   Tue Aug 1 19:58:53 2017 -0700
> > > > 
> > > >      netvsc: transparent VF management
> > > > 
> > > >      This patch implements transparent fail over from synthetic NIC to
> > > >      SR-IOV virtual function NIC in Hyper-V environment. It is a better
> > > >      alternative to using bonding as is done now. Instead, the receive and
> > > >      transmit fail over is done internally inside the driver.
> > > > 
> > > >      Using bonding driver has lots of issues because it depends on the
> > > >      script being run early enough in the boot process and with sufficient
> > > >      information to make the association. This patch moves all that
> > > >      functionality into the kernel.
> > > > 
> > > >      Signed-off-by: Stephen Hemminger <sthemmin@...rosoft.com>
> > > >      Signed-off-by: David S. Miller <davem@...emloft.net>
> > > > 
> > > > If my understanding is correct there's no need to for any extension of 
> > > > virtio spec. If this is true, maybe you can start to prepare the patch?  
> > >
> > > IMHO this is as close to policy in the kernel as one can get.  User
> > > land has all the information it needs to instantiate that bond/team
> > > automatically.  
> > 
> > It does have this info (MAC addresses match) but where's the policy
> > here? IMHO the policy has been set by the hypervisor already.
> > From hypervisor POV adding passthrough is a commitment not to migrate
> > until guest stops using the passthrough device.
> > 
> > Within the guest, the bond is required for purely functional reasons - just to
> > maintain a link up since we know SRIOV will will go away. Maintaining an
> > uninterrupted connection is not a policy - it's what networking is
> > about.
> > 
> > >  In fact I'm trying to discuss this with NetworkManager
> > > folks and Red Hat right now:
> > > 
> > > https://mail.gnome.org/archives/networkmanager-list/2017-November/msg00038.html  
> > 
> > I thought we should do it too, for a while.
> > 
> > But now, I think that the real issue is this: kernel exposes what looks
> > like two network devices to userspace, but in fact it is just one
> > backend device, just exposed by hypervisor in a weird way for
> > compatibility reasons.
> > 
> > For example you will not get a better reliability or throughput by using
> > both of them - the only bonding mode that makes sense is fail over.
> 
> Yes, I'm talking about fail over.
> 
> > As another example, if the underlying physical device lost its link, trying
> > to use virtio won't help - it's only useful when the passthrough device
> > is gone for good.  As another example, there is no point in not
> > configuring a bond. As a last example, depending on how the backend is
> > configured, virtio might not even work when the pass-through device is
> > active.
> > 
> > So from that point of view, showing two network devices to userspace is
> > a bug that we are asking userspace to work around.
> 
> I'm confused by what you're saying here.  IIRC the question is whether
> we expose 2 netdevs or 3.  There will always be a virtio netdev and a
> VF netdev.  I assume you're not suggesting hiding the VF netdev.

Passthrough is a better term, it does not have to be a VF.

All I am saying is these are not two independent devices.

It's a good point - ideally we would hide it completely. Not sure we
can.

>  So
> the question is do we expose a VF netdev and a combo virtio netdev
> which is also a bond or do we expose a VF netdev a virtio netdev, and a
> active/passive bond/team which is a well understood and architecturally
> correct construct.

It's a well understood construct for bonding but it is not exactly what
we are dealing with here. What we have is a single device with two ways
to access it.


> > > Can we flip the argument and ask why is the kernel supposed to be
> > > responsible for this?  
> > 
> > Because if we show a single device to userspace the number of
> > misconfigured guests will go down, and we won't lose any useful
> > flexibility.
> 
> Again, single device?
> 
> > >  It's not like we run DHCP out of the kernel
> > > on new interfaces...   
> > 
> > Because one can set up a static IP, IPv6 doesn't always need DHCP, etc.
> 
> But we don't handle LACP, etc.
> 
> Look, as much as I don't like this, I'm not going to argue about this to
> death.  I just find it very dishonest to claim kernel *has to* do it,

kernel does not *have* to do it. It might be better to do it in kernel though.

> when no one seem to have made any honest attempts to solve this in user
> space for the last 10 years :/

Each time I tried to convince userspace maintainers I get the kind of
pushback you seem to have encountered. And the reason is that they are
used to manage bonding for actual multiple ethernet ports with all the
complexity this entails. Maybe it wasn't an honest attempt in that I
didn't actually post patches, but there you are.

-- 
MST

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