netdev - Re: [PATCH RFC 0/4] net: add bpfilter

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Message-ID: <20180219172040.GJ5490@nataraja>
Date:   Mon, 19 Feb 2018 18:20:40 +0100
From:   Harald Welte <laforge@...monks.org>
To:     David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>
Cc:     daniel@...earbox.net, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        netfilter-devel@...r.kernel.org, alexei.starovoitov@...il.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 0/4] net: add bpfilter

Hi David,

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 10:36:51AM -0500, David Miller wrote:

> nftables has been proported as "better" for years, yet large
> institutions did not migrate to it.  In fact, they explicitly
> disabled NFTABLES in their kernel config.

It's like with any migration.  People were using ipchains for a long
time even after iptables existed.  Many people simply don't care
about packet filter performance.  It's only a small fraction of their
entire CPU workload, so probably not worth optimzing.  For dedicated
firewall devices, that's of course a different story.

How long did it take for the getrandom() system call to be actually used
by applications [even glibc!]?  Or many other things that get introduced
in the kernel?

I can just as well ask how many millions of users / devices are already
using eBPF or XDP? How many major Linux distributions are enabling
and/or supporting this yet?  I'm not criticizing, I'm just attempting
to illustrate that technologies always take time to establish
themselves - and of course those people with the biggest benefit (and
knowing about it) will be the early adopters, while many others have no
motivation to migrate.

> In my opinion, any resistence to integration with eBPF and XDP will
> lead to even less adoption of netfilter as a technology.

1) I may not have made my point clear, sorry.  I have not argued against
   any integration with eBPF, I have just made some specific arguments
   against specific aspects of the current RFC.

2) You have indicated repeatedly that there are millions and millions of
   netfilter/iptables users out there.  So I fail to see the "even less
   adoption" part.  "Even less" than those millions and millions? SCNR.

Regards,
	Harald
-- 
- Harald Welte <laforge@...monks.org>           http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
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