Message-ID: <CADGSJ22Z1ujZOc+OS5E=MwGCy1nTn9D6mHKBz+J=K9+--8R+jg@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Fri, 23 Feb 2018 14:22:36 -0800
From:   Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com>
To:     "Samudrala, Sridhar" <sridhar.samudrala@...el.com>
Cc:     Alexander Duyck <alexander.duyck@...il.com>,
        Jakub Kicinski <kubakici@...pl>,
        "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>,
        Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org,
        virtio-dev@...ts.oasis-open.org,
        "Brandeburg, Jesse" <jesse.brandeburg@...el.com>,
        "Duyck, Alexander H" <alexander.h.duyck@...el.com>,
        Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 0/3] Enable virtio_net to act as a backup for a
 passthru device

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 6:35 PM, Samudrala, Sridhar
<sridhar.samudrala@...el.com> wrote:
> On 2/21/2018 5:59 PM, Siwei Liu wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Alexander Duyck
>> <alexander.duyck@...il.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I haven't checked emails for days and did not realize the new revision
>>>> had already came out. And thank you for the effort, this revision
>>>> really looks to be a step forward towards our use case and is close to
>>>> what we wanted to do. A few questions in line.
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Alexander Duyck
>>>> <alexander.duyck@...il.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 6:38 PM, Jakub Kicinski <kubakici@...pl> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:11:19 -0800, Sridhar Samudrala wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ppatch 2 is in response to the community request for a 3 netdev
>>>>>>> solution.  However, it creates some issues we'll get into in a
>>>>>>> moment.
>>>>>>> It extends virtio_net to use alternate datapath when available and
>>>>>>> registered. When BACKUP feature is enabled, virtio_net driver creates
>>>>>>> an additional 'bypass' netdev that acts as a master device and
>>>>>>> controls
>>>>>>> 2 slave devices.  The original virtio_net netdev is registered as
>>>>>>> 'backup' netdev and a passthru/vf device with the same MAC gets
>>>>>>> registered as 'active' netdev. Both 'bypass' and 'backup' netdevs are
>>>>>>> associated with the same 'pci' device.  The user accesses the network
>>>>>>> interface via 'bypass' netdev. The 'bypass' netdev chooses 'active'
>>>>>>> netdev
>>>>>>> as default for transmits when it is available with link up and
>>>>>>> running.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you do doing this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We noticed a couple of issues with this approach during testing.
>>>>>>> - As both 'bypass' and 'backup' netdevs are associated with the same
>>>>>>>    virtio pci device, udev tries to rename both of them with the same
>>>>>>> name
>>>>>>>    and the 2nd rename will fail. This would be OK as long as the
>>>>>>> first netdev
>>>>>>>    to be renamed is the 'bypass' netdev, but the order in which udev
>>>>>>> gets
>>>>>>>    to rename the 2 netdevs is not reliable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Out of curiosity - why do you link the master netdev to the virtio
>>>>>> struct device?
>>>>>
>>>>> The basic idea of all this is that we wanted this to work with an
>>>>> existing VM image that was using virtio. As such we were trying to
>>>>> make it so that the bypass interface takes the place of the original
>>>>> virtio and get udev to rename the bypass to what the original
>>>>> virtio_net was.
>>>>
>>>> Could it made it also possible to take over the config from VF instead
>>>> of virtio on an existing VM image? And get udev rename the bypass
>>>> netdev to what the original VF was. I don't say tightly binding the
>>>> bypass master to only virtio or VF, but I think we should provide both
>>>> options to support different upgrade paths. Possibly we could tweak
>>>> the device tree layout to reuse the same PCI slot for the master
>>>> bypass netdev, such that udev would not get confused when renaming the
>>>> device. The VF needs to use a different function slot afterwards.
>>>> Perhaps we might need to a special multiseat like QEMU device for that
>>>> purpose?
>>>>
>>>> Our case we'll upgrade the config from VF to virtio-bypass directly.
>>>
>>> So if I am understanding what you are saying you are wanting to flip
>>> the backup interface from the virtio to a VF. The problem is that
>>> becomes a bit of a vendor lock-in solution since it would rely on a
>>> specific VF driver. I would agree with Jiri that we don't want to go
>>> down that path. We don't want every VF out there firing up its own
>>> separate bond. Ideally you want the hypervisor to be able to manage
>>> all of this which is why it makes sense to have virtio manage this and
>>> why this is associated with the virtio_net interface.
>>
>> No, that's not what I was talking about of course. I thought you
>> mentioned the upgrade scenario this patch would like to address is to
>> use the bypass interface "to take the place of the original virtio,
>> and get udev to rename the bypass to what the original virtio_net
>> was". That is one of the possible upgrade paths for sure. However the
>> upgrade path I was seeking is to use the bypass interface to take the
>> place of original VF interface while retaining the name and network
>> configs, which generally can be done simply with kernel upgrade. It
>> would become limiting as this patch makes the bypass interface share
>> the same virtio pci device with virito backup. Can this bypass
>> interface be made general to take place of any pci device other than
>> virtio-net? This will be more helpful as the cloud users who has
>> existing setup on VF interface don't have to recreate it on virtio-net
>> and VF separately again.
>
>
> Yes. This sounds interesting. Looks like you want an existing VM image with
> VF only configuration to get transparent live migration support by adding
> virtio_net with BACKUP feature.  We may need another feature bit to switch
> between these 2 options.

Yes, that's what I was thinking about. I have been building something
like this before, and would like to get back after merging with your
patch.

>
>
>
>>
>>> The other bits get into more complexity then we are ready to handle
>>> for now. I think I might have talked about something similar that I
>>> was referring to as a "virtio-bond" where you would have a PCI/PCIe
>>> tree topology that makes this easier to sort out, and the "virtio-bond
>>> would be used to handle coordination/configuration of a much more
>>> complex interface.
>>
>> That was one way to solve this problem but I'd like to see simple ways
>> to sort it out.
>>
>>>>>> FWIW two solutions that immediately come to mind is to export "backup"
>>>>>> as phys_port_name of the backup virtio link and/or assign a name to
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> master like you are doing already.  I think team uses team%d and bond
>>>>>> uses bond%d, soft naming of master devices seems quite natural in this
>>>>>> case.
>>>>>
>>>>> I figured I had overlooked something like that.. Thanks for pointing
>>>>> this out. Okay so I think the phys_port_name approach might resolve
>>>>> the original issue. If I am reading things correctly what we end up
>>>>> with is the master showing up as "ens1" for example and the backup
>>>>> showing up as "ens1nbackup". Am I understanding that right?
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem with the team/bond%d approach is that it creates a new
>>>>> netdevice and so it would require guest configuration changes.
>>>>>
>>>>>> IMHO phys_port_name == "backup" if BACKUP bit is set on slave virtio
>>>>>> link is quite neat.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. For non-"backup" virio_net devices would it be okay for us to
>>>>> just return -EOPNOTSUPP? I assume it would be and that way the legacy
>>>>> behavior could be maintained although the function still exists.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> - When the 'active' netdev is unplugged OR not present on a
>>>>>>> destination
>>>>>>>    system after live migration, the user will see 2 virtio_net
>>>>>>> netdevs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's necessary and expected, all configuration applies to the master
>>>>>> so master must exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> With the naming issue resolved this is the only item left outstanding.
>>>>> This becomes a matter of form vs function.
>>>>>
>>>>> The main complaint about the "3 netdev" solution is a bit confusing to
>>>>> have the 2 netdevs present if the VF isn't there. The idea is that
>>>>> having the extra "master" netdev there if there isn't really a bond is
>>>>> a bit ugly.
>>>>
>>>> Is it this uglier in terms of user experience rather than
>>>> functionality? I don't want it dynamically changed between 2-netdev
>>>> and 3-netdev depending on the presence of VF. That gets back to my
>>>> original question and suggestion earlier: why not just hide the lower
>>>> netdevs from udev renaming and such? Which important observability
>>>> benefits users may get if exposing the lower netdevs?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> -Siwei
>>>
>>> The only real advantage to a 2 netdev solution is that it looks like
>>> the netvsc solution, however it doesn't behave like it since there are
>>> some features like XDP that may not function correctly if they are
>>> left enabled in the virtio_net interface.
>>>
>>> As far as functionality the advantage of not hiding the lower devices
>>> is that they are free to be managed. The problem with pushing all of
>>> the configuration into the upper device is that you are limited to the
>>> intersection of the features of the lower devices. This can be
>>> limiting for some setups as some VFs support things like more queues,
>>> or better interrupt moderation options than others so trying to make
>>> everything work with one config would be ugly.
>>
>> It depends on how you build it and the way you expect it to work. IMHO
>> the lower devices don't need to be directly managed at all, otherwise
>> it ends up with loss of configuration across migration, and it really
>> does not bring much value than having a general team or bond device.
>> Users still have to reconfigure those queue settings and interrupt
>> moderation options after all. The new upper device could take the
>> assumption that the VF/PT lower device always has superior feature set
>> than virtio-net in order to apply advanced configuration. The upper
>> device should remember all configurations previously done and apply
>> supporting ones to active device automatically when switching the
>> datapath.
>>
> It should be possible to extend this patchset to support migration of
> additional
> settings  by enabling additional ndo_ops and ethtool_ops on the upper dev
> and propagating them down the lower devices and replaying the settings after
> the VF is replugged after migration.

Indeed. But your 3rd patch will collapse this merit of the 3-netdev
into the former 2-netdev model - I hope it's just for demostrating the
possibility of dynamically switching ndo_ops and ethtool_ops but not
actually making it complicated in implementing this further.

Thanks,
-Siwei
>
> Thanks
> Sridhar

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