Message-ID: <20180611170056-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
Date:   Mon, 11 Jun 2018 17:01:48 +0300
From:   "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:     Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>
Cc:     Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
        kys@...rosoft.com, haiyangz@...rosoft.com,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        "Samudrala, Sridhar" <sridhar.samudrala@...el.com>,
        Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        Stephen Hemminger <sthemmin@...rosoft.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net] failover: eliminate callback hell

On Fri, Jun 08, 2018 at 05:02:35PM -0700, Stephen Hemminger wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jun 2018 16:44:12 -0700
> Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 4:18 PM, Stephen Hemminger
> > <stephen@...workplumber.org> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:25:59 -0700
> > > Siwei Liu <loseweigh@...il.com> wrote:
> > >  
> > >> On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 2:24 PM, Stephen Hemminger
> > >> <stephen@...workplumber.org> wrote:  
> > >> > On Wed, 6 Jun 2018 15:30:27 +0300
> > >> > "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com> wrote:
> > >> >  
> > >> >> On Wed, Jun 06, 2018 at 09:25:12AM +0200, Jiri Pirko wrote:  
> > >> >> > Tue, Jun 05, 2018 at 05:42:31AM CEST, stephen@...workplumber.org wrote:  
> > >> >> > >The net failover should be a simple library, not a virtual
> > >> >> > >object with function callbacks (see callback hell).  
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > Why just a library? It should do a common things. I think it should be a
> > >> >> > virtual object. Looks like your patch again splits the common
> > >> >> > functionality into multiple drivers. That is kind of backwards attitude.
> > >> >> > I don't get it. We should rather focus on fixing the mess the
> > >> >> > introduction of netvsc-bonding caused and switch netvsc to 3-netdev
> > >> >> > model.  
> > >> >>
> > >> >> So it seems that at least one benefit for netvsc would be better
> > >> >> handling of renames.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Question is how can this change to 3-netdev happen?  Stephen is
> > >> >> concerned about risk of breaking some userspace.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Stephen, this seems to be the usecase that IFF_HIDDEN was trying to
> > >> >> address, and you said then "why not use existing network namespaces
> > >> >> rather than inventing a new abstraction". So how about it then? Do you
> > >> >> want to find a way to use namespaces to hide the PV device for netvsc
> > >> >> compatibility?
> > >> >>  
> > >> >
> > >> > Netvsc can't work with 3 dev model. MS has worked with enough distro's and
> > >> > startups that all demand eth0 always be present. And VF may come and go.
> > >> > After this history, there is a strong motivation not to change how kernel
> > >> > behaves. Switching to 3 device model would be perceived as breaking
> > >> > existing userspace.
> > >> >
> > >> > With virtio you can  work it out with the distro's yourself.
> > >> > There is no pre-existing semantics to deal with.
> > >> >
> > >> > For the virtio, I don't see the need for IFF_HIDDEN.  
> > >>
> > >> I have a somewhat different view regarding IFF_HIDDEN. The purpose of
> > >> that flag, as well as the 1-netdev model, is to have a means to
> > >> inherit the interface name from the VF, and to eliminate playing hacks
> > >> around renaming devices, customizing udev rules and et al. Why
> > >> inheriting VF's name important? To allow existing config/setup around
> > >> VF continues to work across kernel feature upgrade. Most of network
> > >> config files in all distros are based on interface names. Few are MAC
> > >> address based but making lower slaves hidden would cover the rest. And
> > >> most importantly, preserving the same level of user experience as
> > >> using raw VF interface once getting all ndo_ops and ethtool_ops
> > >> exposed. This is essential to realize transparent live migration that
> > >> users dont have to learn and be aware of the undertaken.  
> > >
> > > Inheriting the VF name will fail in the migration scenario.
> > > It is perfectly reasonable to migrate a guest to another machine where
> > > the VF PCI address is different. And since current udev/systemd model
> > > is to base network device name off of PCI address, the device will change
> > > name when guest is migrated.
> > >  
> > The scenario of having VF on a different PCI address on post migration
> > is essentially equal to plugging in a new NIC. Why it has to pair with
> > the original PV? A sepearte PV device should be in place to pair the
> > new VF.
> 
> The host only guarantees that the PV device will be on the same network.
> It does not make any PCI guarantees. The way Windows works is to find
> the device based on "serial number" which is an Hyper-V specific attribute
> of PCI devices.
> 
> I considered naming off of serial number but that won't work for the
> case where PV device is present first and VF arrives later. The serial
> number is attribute of VF, not the PV which is there first.
> 
> Your ideas about having the PCI information of the VF form the name
> of the failover device have the same problem. The PV device may
> be the only one present on boot.

We plan to add the serial number to the PV.


> 
> > > On Azure, the VF maybe removed (by host) at any time and then later
> > > reattached. There is no guarantee that VF will show back up at
> > > the same synthetic PCI address. It will likely have a different
> > > PCI domain value.  
> > 
> > This is something QEMU can do and make sure the PCI address is
> > consistent after migration.
> > 
> > -Siwei

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