netdev - Re: [RFC PATCH net-next] failover: allow name change on IFF

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Message-ID: <98243a73-a42a-6465-cf3c-a049c53b4d0c@oracle.com>
Date:   Tue, 5 Mar 2019 23:15:06 -0800
From:   si-wei liu <si-wei.liu@...cle.com>
To:     "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
Cc:     Stephen Hemminger <stephen@...workplumber.org>,
        Sridhar Samudrala <sridhar.samudrala@...el.com>,
        Jakub Kicinski <kubakici@...pl>, Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org, liran.alon@...cle.com,
        boris.ostrovsky@...cle.com, vijay.balakrishna@...cle.com
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH net-next] failover: allow name change on IFF_UP slave
 interfaces



On 3/5/2019 10:43 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 05, 2019 at 04:51:00PM -0800, si-wei liu wrote:
>>
>> On 3/5/2019 4:36 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
>>> On Tue, Mar 05, 2019 at 04:20:50PM -0800, si-wei liu wrote:
>>>> On 3/5/2019 4:06 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 05, 2019 at 11:35:50AM -0800, si-wei liu wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/5/2019 11:24 AM, Stephen Hemminger wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 11:19:32 -0800
>>>>>>> si-wei liu <si-wei.liu@...cle.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have a vague idea: would it work to *not* set
>>>>>>>>> IFF_UP on slave devices at all?
>>>>>>>> Hmm, I ever thought about this option, and it appears this solution is
>>>>>>>> more invasive than required to convert existing scripts, despite the
>>>>>>>> controversy of introducing internal netdev state to differentiate user
>>>>>>>> visible state. Either we disallow slave to be brought up by user, or to
>>>>>>>> not set IFF_UP flag but instead use the internal one, could end up with
>>>>>>>> substantial behavioral change that breaks scripts. Consider any admin
>>>>>>>> script that does `ip link set dev ... up' successfully just assumes the
>>>>>>>> link is up and subsequent operation can be done as usual.
>>>>> How would it work when carrier is off?
>>>>>
>>>>>> While it *may*
>>>>>>>> work for dracut (yet to be verified), I'm a bit concerned that there are
>>>>>>>> more scripts to be converted than those that don't follow volatile
>>>>>>>> failover slave names. It's technically doable, but may not worth the
>>>>>>>> effort (in terms of porting existing scripts/apps).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>> -Siwei
>>>>>>> Won't work for most devices.  Many devices turn off PHY and link layer
>>>>>>> if not IFF_UP
>>>>>> True, that's what I said about introducing internal state for those driver
>>>>>> and other kernel component. Very invasive change indeed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Siwei
>>>>> Well I did say it's vague.
>>>>> How about hiding IFF_UP from dev_get_flags (and probably
>>>>> __dev_change_flags)?
>>>>>
>>>> Any different? This has small footprint for the kernel change for sure,
>>>> while the discrepancy is still there. Anyone who writes code for IFF_UP will
>>>> not notice IFF_FAILOVER_SLAVE.
>>>>
>>>> Not to mention more userspace "fixup" work has to be done due to this
>>>> change.
>>>>
>>>> -Siwei
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Point is it's ok since most userspace should just ignore slaves
>>> - hopefully it will just ignore it since it already
>>> ignores interfaces that are down.
>> Admin script thought the interface could be bright up and do further
>> operations without checking the UP flag.
> These scripts then would be broken  on any box with multiple interfaces
> since not all of these would have carrier.
Consider a script executing `ifconfig ... up' and once succeeds runs 
tcpdump or some other command relying on UP interface. It's quite common 
that those scripts don't check the UP flag but instead just rely on the 
well-known fact that the command exits with 0 meaning the interface 
should be UP. This change might well break scripts of that kind.

>
>
>> It doesn't look to be a reliable
>> way of prohibit userspace from operating against slaves.
>>
>> -Siwei
>>
>>
> This does not mean we shouldn't make an effort to disable broken
> configurations.
>
> I am not arguing against your patch. Not at all. I see better
> hiding of slaves as a separate enhancement.
I understand, but my point is we should try to minimize unnecessary side 
impact to the current usage for whatever "hiding" effort we can make. 
It's hard to find a tradeoff sometimes.

>
>
> Acked-by: Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@...hat.com>
>
>
Thank you.

-Siwei