Message-ID: <87bm16uw9t.fsf@toke.dk>
Date:   Tue, 16 Apr 2019 10:36:30 +0100
From:   Toke Høiland-Jørgensen <toke@...hat.com>
To:     Björn Töpel <bjorn.topel@...il.com>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@...hat.com>
Cc:     Björn Töpel <bjorn.topel@...el.com>,
        Ilias Apalodimas <ilias.apalodimas@...aro.org>,
        "Karlsson\, Magnus" <magnus.karlsson@...el.com>,
        maciej.fijalkowski@...el.com, Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...com>,
        Daniel Borkmann <borkmann@...earbox.net>,
        Jakub Kicinski <jakub.kicinski@...ronome.com>,
        John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Andy Gospodarek <andy@...yhouse.net>,
        "netdev\@vger.kernel.org" <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        bpf <bpf@...r.kernel.org>, Thomas Graf <tgraf@...g.ch>,
        Thomas Monjalon <thomas@...jalon.net>,
        Jonathan Lemon <bsd@...com>
Subject: Re: Per-queue XDP programs, thoughts

Björn Töpel <bjorn.topel@...il.com> writes:

> On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 at 18:33, Jesper Dangaard Brouer <brouer@...hat.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 15 Apr 2019 13:59:03 +0200 Björn Töpel <bjorn.topel@...el.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > As you probably can derive from the amount of time this is taking, I'm
>> > not really satisfied with the design of per-queue XDP program. (That,
>> > plus I'm a terribly slow hacker... ;-)) I'll try to expand my thinking
>> > in this mail!
>> >
>> > Beware, it's kind of a long post, and it's all over the place.
>>
>> Cc'ing all the XDP-maintainers (and netdev).
>>
>> > There are a number of ways of setting up flows in the kernel, e.g.
>> >
>> > * Connecting/accepting a TCP socket (in-band)
>> > * Using tc-flower (out-of-band)
>> > * ethtool (out-of-band)
>> > * ...
>> >
>> > The first acts on sockets, the second on netdevs. Then there's ethtool
>> > to configure RSS, and the RSS-on-steriods rxhash/ntuple that can steer
>> > to queues. Most users care about sockets and netdevices. Queues is
>> > more of an implementation detail of Rx or for QoS on the Tx side.
>>
>> Let me first acknowledge that the current Linux tools to administrator
>> HW filters is lacking (well sucks).  We know the hardware is capable,
>> as DPDK have an full API for this called rte_flow[1]. If nothing else
>> you/we can use the DPDK API to create a program to configure the
>> hardware, examples here[2]
>>
>>  [1] https://doc.dpdk.org/guides/prog_guide/rte_flow.html
>>  [2] https://doc.dpdk.org/guides/howto/rte_flow.html
>>
>> > XDP is something that we can attach to a netdevice. Again, very
>> > natural from a user perspective. As for XDP sockets, the current
>> > mechanism is that we attach to an existing netdevice queue. Ideally
>> > what we'd like is to *remove* the queue concept. A better approach
>> > would be creating the socket and set it up -- but not binding it to a
>> > queue. Instead just binding it to a netdevice (or crazier just
>> > creating a socket without a netdevice).
>>
>> Let me just remind everybody that the AF_XDP performance gains comes
>> from binding the resource, which allow for lock-free semantics, as
>> explained here[3].
>>
>> [3] https://github.com/xdp-project/xdp-tutorial/tree/master/advanced03-AF_XDP#where-does-af_xdp-performance-come-from
>>
>
> Yes, but leaving the "binding to queue" to the kernel wouldn't really
> change much. It would mostly be that the *user* doesn't need to care
> about hardware details. My concern is about "what is a good
> abstraction".

Can we really guarantee that we will make the right decision from inside
the kernel, though?

>>
>> > The socket is an endpoint, where I'd like data to end up (or get sent
>> > from). If the kernel can attach the socket to a hardware queue,
>> > there's zerocopy if not, copy-mode. Dito for Tx.
>>
>> Well XDP programs per RXQ is just a building block to achieve this.
>>
>> As Van Jacobson explain[4], sockets or applications "register" a
>> "transport signature", and gets back a "channel".   In our case, the
>> netdev-global XDP program is our way to register/program these transport
>> signatures and redirect (e.g. into the AF_XDP socket).
>> This requires some work in software to parse and match transport
>> signatures to sockets.  The XDP programs per RXQ is a way to get
>> hardware to perform this filtering for us.
>>
>>  [4] http://www.lemis.com/grog/Documentation/vj/lca06vj.pdf
>>
>
> There are a lot of things that are missing to build what you're
> describing above. Yes, we need a better way to program the HW from
> Linux userland (old topic); What I fail to see is how per-queue XDP is
> a way to get hardware to perform filtering. Could you give a
> longer/complete example (obviously with non-existing features :-)), so
> I get a better view what you're aiming for?
>
>
>>
>> > Does a user (control plane) want/need to care about queues? Just
>> > create a flow to a socket (out-of-band or inband) or to a netdevice
>> > (out-of-band).
>>
>> A userspace "control-plane" program, could hide the setup and use what
>> the system/hardware can provide of optimizations.  VJ[4] e.g. suggest
>> that the "listen" socket first register the transport signature (with
>> the driver) on "accept()".   If the HW supports DPDK-rte_flow API we
>> can register a 5-tuple (or create TC-HW rules) and load our
>> "transport-signature" XDP prog on the queue number we choose.  If not,
>> when our netdev-global XDP prog need a hash-table with 5-tuple and do
>> 5-tuple parsing.
>>
>> Creating netdevices via HW filter into queues is an interesting idea.
>> DPDK have an example here[5], on how to per flow (via ethtool filter
>> setup even!) send packets to queues, that endup in SRIOV devices.
>>
>>  [5] https://doc.dpdk.org/guides/howto/flow_bifurcation.html
>>
>>
>> > Do we envison any other uses for per-queue XDP other than AF_XDP? If
>> > not, it would make *more* sense to attach the XDP program to the
>> > socket (e.g. if the endpoint would like to use kernel data structures
>> > via XDP).
>>
>> As demonstrated in [5] you can use (ethtool) hardware filters to
>> redirect packets into VFs (Virtual Functions).
>>
>> I also want us to extend XDP to allow for redirect from a PF (Physical
>> Function) into a VF (Virtual Function).  First the netdev-global
>> XDP-prog need to support this (maybe extend xdp_rxq_info with PF + VF
>> info).  Next configure HW filter to queue# and load XDP prog on that
>> queue# that only "redirect" to a single VF.  Now if driver+HW supports
>> it, it can "eliminate" the per-queue XDP-prog and do everything in HW.
>>
>
> Again, let's try to be more concrete! So, one (non-existing) mechanism
> to program filtering to HW queues, and then attaching a per-queue
> program to that HW queue, which can in some cases be elided? I'm not
> opposing the idea of per-queue, I'm just trying to figure out
> *exactly* what we're aiming for.
>
> My concern is, again, mainly that is a queue abstraction something
> we'd like to introduce to userland. It's not there (well, no really
> :-)) today. And from an AF_XDP userland perspective that's painful.
> "Oh, you need to fix your RSS hashing/flow." E.g. if I read what
> Jonathan is looking for, it's more of something like what Jiri Pirko
> suggested in [1] (slide 9, 10).
>
> Hey, maybe I just need to see the fuller picture. :-) AF_XDP is too
> tricky to use from XDP IMO. Per-queue XDP program would *optimize*
> AF_XDP, but not solving the filtering. Maybe starting in the
> filtering/metadata offload path end of things, and then see what we're
> missing.
>
>>
>> > If we'd like to slice a netdevice into multiple queues. Isn't macvlan
>> > or similar *virtual* netdevices a better path, instead of introducing
>> > yet another abstraction?
>>
>> XDP redirect a more generic abstraction that allow us to implement
>> macvlan.  Except macvlan driver is missing ndo_xdp_xmit. Again first I
>> write this as global-netdev XDP-prog, that does a lookup in a BPF-map.
>> Next I configure HW filters that match the MAC-addr into a queue# and
>> attach simpler XDP-prog to queue#, that redirect into macvlan device.
>>
>
> Just for context; I was thinking something like macvlan with
> ndo_dfwd_add/del_station functionality. "A virtual interface that is
> simply is a view of a physical". A per-queue program would then mean
> "create a netdev for that queue".

My immediate reaction is that I kinda like this model from an API PoV;
not sure what it would take to get there, though? When you say
'something like macvlan', you do mean we'd have to add something
completely new, right?

-Toke

Powered by blists - more mailing lists