Message-ID: <CAEf4BzZ_c3srGXfX5RvPPSoibeyiz0a6042sU0=Kx7XmZp3-Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Tue, 14 May 2019 09:34:41 -0700
From:   Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@...il.com>
To:     Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>
Cc:     Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>, Martin Lau <kafai@...com>,
        bpf@...r.kernel.org, Networking <netdev@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf 1/3] bpf: add map_lookup_elem_sys_only for lookups
 from syscall side

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:59 AM Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net> wrote:
>
> On 05/14/2019 07:04 AM, Andrii Nakryiko wrote:
> > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 4:20 PM Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Add a callback map_lookup_elem_sys_only() that map implementations
> >> could use over map_lookup_elem() from system call side in case the
> >> map implementation needs to handle the latter differently than from
> >> the BPF data path. If map_lookup_elem_sys_only() is set, this will
> >> be preferred pick for map lookups out of user space. This hook is
> >
> > This is kind of surprising behavior  w/ preferred vs default lookup
> > code path. Why the desired behavior can't be achieved with an extra
> > flag, similar to BPF_F_LOCK? It seems like it will be more explicit,
> > more extensible and more generic approach, avoiding duplication of
> > lookup semantics.
>
> For lookup from syscall side, this is possible of course. Given the
> current situation breaks heuristic with any walks of the LRU map, I
> presume you are saying something like an opt-in flag such as
> BPF_F_MARK_USED would be more useful? I was thinking about something

To preserve existing semantics, it would be opt-out
BPF_F_DONT_MARK_USED, if you don't want to update LRU, so that
existing use cases don't break.

> like this initially, but then I couldn't come up with a concrete use
> case where it's needed/useful today for user space. Given that, my
> preference was to only add such flag wait until there is an actual
> need for it, and in any case, it is trivial to add it later on. Do
> you have a concrete need for it today that would justify such flag?

So my concern was with having two ops for lookup for maps
(map_lookup_elem() and map_lookup_elem_sys_only()) which for existing
use cases differ only in whether we are reordering LRU on lookup or
not, which felt like would be cleaner to solve with extending
ops->map_lookup_elem() to accept flags. But now I realize that there
are important implementation limitations preventing doing this cleanly
and efficiently, so I rescind my proposal.

>
> > E.g., for LRU map, with flag on lookup, one can decide whether lookup
> > from inside BPF program (not just from syscall side!) should modify
> > LRU ordering or not, simply by specifying extra flag. Am I missing
> > some complication that prevents us from doing it that way?
>
> For programs it's a bit tricky. The BPF call interface is ...
>
>   BPF_CALL_2(bpf_map_lookup_elem, struct bpf_map *, map, void *, key)
>
> ... meaning verifier does not care what argument 3 and beyond contains.
> From BPF context/pov, it could also be uninitialized register. This would
> mean, we'd need to add a BPF_CALL_3(bpf_map_lookup_elem2, ...) interface
> which programs would use instead (and to not break existing ones), or
> some other new helper call that gets a map value argument to unmark the
> element from LRU side. While all doable one way or another although bit
> hacky, we should probably clarify and understand the use case for it
> first, thus brings me back to the last question from above paragraph.

Yeah, if we wanted to expose this functionality from BPF side right
now, we'd have to add new helper w/ extra flags arg. As I mentioned
above, though, I assumed it wouldn't be too hard to make existing
BPF_CALL_2(bpf_map_lookup_elem, struct bpf_map *, map, void *, key)
translate to map->ops->map_lookup_elem(key, 0 /* flags */), filling in
default flags = 0 value, but apparently that's not that simple (and
will hurt performance).

>
> Thanks,
> Daniel

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