Date:   Fri, 16 Aug 2019 08:35:50 -0700
From:   Stanislav Fomichev <sdf@...ichev.me>
To:     Toshiaki Makita <toshiaki.makita1@...il.com>
Cc:     Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        Martin KaFai Lau <kafai@...com>,
        Song Liu <songliubraving@...com>, Yonghong Song <yhs@...com>,
        "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Jakub Kicinski <jakub.kicinski@...ronome.com>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <hawk@...nel.org>,
        John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>,
        Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
        Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        bpf@...r.kernel.org, William Tu <u9012063@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH bpf-next 00/14] xdp_flow: Flow offload to XDP

On 08/16, Toshiaki Makita wrote:
> On 2019/08/16 0:21, Stanislav Fomichev wrote:
> > On 08/15, Toshiaki Makita wrote:
> > > On 2019/08/15 2:07, Stanislav Fomichev wrote:
> > > > On 08/13, Toshiaki Makita wrote:
> > > > > * Implementation
> > > > > 
> > > > > xdp_flow makes use of UMH to load an eBPF program for XDP, similar to
> > > > > bpfilter. The difference is that xdp_flow does not generate the eBPF
> > > > > program dynamically but a prebuilt program is embedded in UMH. This is
> > > > > mainly because flow insertion is considerably frequent. If we generate
> > > > > and load an eBPF program on each insertion of a flow, the latency of the
> > > > > first packet of ping in above test will incease, which I want to avoid.
> > > > Can this be instead implemented with a new hook that will be called
> > > > for TC events? This hook can write to perf event buffer and control
> > > > plane will insert/remove/modify flow tables in the BPF maps (contol
> > > > plane will also install xdp program).
> > > > 
> > > > Why do we need UMH? What am I missing?
> > > 
> > > So you suggest doing everything in xdp_flow kmod?
> > You probably don't even need xdp_flow kmod. Add new tc "offload" mode
> > (bypass) that dumps every command via netlink (or calls the BPF hook
> > where you can dump it into perf event buffer) and then read that info
> > from userspace and install xdp programs and modify flow tables.
> > I don't think you need any kernel changes besides that stream
> > of data from the kernel about qdisc/tc flow creation/removal/etc.
> 
> My intention is to make more people who want high speed network easily use XDP,
> so making transparent XDP offload with current TC interface.
> 
> What userspace program would monitor TC events with your suggestion?
Have a new system daemon (xdpflowerd) that is independently
packaged/shipped/installed. Anybody who wants accelerated TC can
download/install it. OVS can be completely unaware of this.

> ovs-vswitchd? If so, it even does not need to monitor TC. It can
> implement XDP offload directly.
> (However I prefer kernel solution. Please refer to "About alternative
> userland (ovs-vswitchd etc.) implementation" section in the cover letter.)
> 
> Also such a TC monitoring solution easily can be out-of-sync with real TC
> behavior as TC filter/flower is being heavily developed and changed,
> e.g. introduction of TC block, support multiple masks with the same pref, etc.
> I'm not sure such an unreliable solution have much value.
This same issue applies to the in-kernel implementation, isn't it?
What happens if somebody sends patches for a new flower feature but
doesn't add appropriate xdp support? Do we reject them?

That's why I'm suggesting to move this problem to the userspace :-)

> > But, I haven't looked at the series deeply, so I might be missing
> > something :-)
> > 
> > > I also thought about that. There are two phases so let's think about them separately.
> > > 
> > > 1) TC block (qdisc) creation / eBPF load
> > > 
> > > I saw eBPF maintainers repeatedly saying eBPF program loading needs to be
> > > done from userland, not from kernel, to run the verifier for safety.
> > > However xdp_flow eBPF program is prebuilt and embedded in kernel so we may
> > > allow such programs to be loaded from kernel? I currently don't have the will
> > > to make such an API as loading can be done with current UMH mechanism.
> > > 
> > > 2) flow insertion / eBPF map update
> > > 
> > > Not sure if this needs to be done from userland. One concern is that eBPF maps can
> > > be modified by unrelated processes and we need to handle all unexpected state of maps.
> > > Such handling tends to be difficult and may cause unexpected kernel behavior.
> > > OTOH updating maps from kmod may reduces the latency of flow insertion drastically.
> > Latency from the moment I type 'tc filter add ...' to the moment the rule
> > is installed into the maps? Does it really matter?
> 
> Yes it matters. Flow insertion is kind of data path in OVS.
> Please see how ping latency is affected in the cover letter.
Ok, but what I'm suggesting shouldn't be less performant.
We are talking about UMH writing into a pipe vs writing TC events into
a netlink.

> > Do I understand correctly that both of those events (qdisc creation and
> > flow insertion) are triggered from tcf_block_offload_cmd (or similar)?
> 
> Both of eBPF load and map update are triggered from tcf_block_offload_cmd.
> I think you understand it correctly.
> 
> Toshiaki Makita

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