Date:   Fri, 16 Aug 2019 09:20:29 -0700
From:   Stanislav Fomichev <sdf@...ichev.me>
To:     Jakub Kicinski <jakub.kicinski@...ronome.com>
Cc:     Toshiaki Makita <toshiaki.makita1@...il.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        Martin KaFai Lau <kafai@...com>,
        Song Liu <songliubraving@...com>, Yonghong Song <yhs@...com>,
        "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Jesper Dangaard Brouer <hawk@...nel.org>,
        John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>,
        Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
        Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        bpf@...r.kernel.org, William Tu <u9012063@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH bpf-next 00/14] xdp_flow: Flow offload to XDP

On 08/16, Stanislav Fomichev wrote:
> On 08/15, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> > On Thu, 15 Aug 2019 08:21:00 -0700, Stanislav Fomichev wrote:
> > > On 08/15, Toshiaki Makita wrote:
> > > > On 2019/08/15 2:07, Stanislav Fomichev wrote:  
> > > > > On 08/13, Toshiaki Makita wrote:  
> > > > > > * Implementation
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > xdp_flow makes use of UMH to load an eBPF program for XDP, similar to
> > > > > > bpfilter. The difference is that xdp_flow does not generate the eBPF
> > > > > > program dynamically but a prebuilt program is embedded in UMH. This is
> > > > > > mainly because flow insertion is considerably frequent. If we generate
> > > > > > and load an eBPF program on each insertion of a flow, the latency of the
> > > > > > first packet of ping in above test will incease, which I want to avoid.  
> > > > > Can this be instead implemented with a new hook that will be called
> > > > > for TC events? This hook can write to perf event buffer and control
> > > > > plane will insert/remove/modify flow tables in the BPF maps (contol
> > > > > plane will also install xdp program).
> > > > > 
> > > > > Why do we need UMH? What am I missing?  
> > > > 
> > > > So you suggest doing everything in xdp_flow kmod?  
> > > You probably don't even need xdp_flow kmod. Add new tc "offload" mode
> > > (bypass) that dumps every command via netlink (or calls the BPF hook
> > > where you can dump it into perf event buffer) and then read that info
> > > from userspace and install xdp programs and modify flow tables.
> > > I don't think you need any kernel changes besides that stream
> > > of data from the kernel about qdisc/tc flow creation/removal/etc.
> > 
> > There's a certain allure in bringing the in-kernel BPF translation
> > infrastructure forward. OTOH from system architecture perspective IMHO
> > it does seem like a task best handed in user space. bpfilter can replace
> > iptables completely, here we're looking at an acceleration relatively
> > loosely coupled with flower.
> Even for bpfilter I would've solved it using something similar:
> iptables bypass + redirect iptables netlink requests to some
> userspace helper that was registered to be iptables compatibility
> manager. And then, again, it becomes a purely userspace problem.
Oh, wait, isn't iptables kernel api is setsockopt/getsockopt?
With the new cgroup hooks you can now try to do bpfilter completely
in BPF 🤯

> The issue with UMH is that the helper has to be statically compiled
> from the kernel tree, which means we can't bring in any dependencies
> (stuff like libkefir you mentioned below).
> 
> But I digress :-)
> 
> > FWIW Quentin spent some time working on a universal flow rule to BPF
> > translation library:
> > 
> > https://github.com/Netronome/libkefir
> > 
> > A lot remains to be done there, but flower front end is one of the
> > targets. A library can be tuned for any application, without a
> > dependency on flower uAPI.
> > 
> > > But, I haven't looked at the series deeply, so I might be missing
> > > something :-)
> > 
> > I don't think you are :)

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