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Date:   Thu, 20 Aug 2020 08:35:25 -0600
From:   David Ahern <dsahern@...il.com>
To:     Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>,
        Florian Fainelli <f.fainelli@...il.com>
Cc:     Ido Schimmel <idosch@...sch.org>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        davem@...emloft.net, jiri@...dia.com, amcohen@...dia.com,
        danieller@...dia.com, mlxsw@...dia.com, roopa@...dia.com,
        andrew@...n.ch, vivien.didelot@...il.com, tariqt@...dia.com,
        ayal@...dia.com, mkubecek@...e.cz, Ido Schimmel <idosch@...dia.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH net-next 0/6] devlink: Add device metric support

On 8/19/20 12:07 PM, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 10:20:08 -0700 Florian Fainelli wrote:
>>> I'm trying to find a solution which will not require a policeman to
>>> constantly monitor the compliance. Please see my effort to ensure
>>> drivers document and use the same ethtool -S stats in the TLS offload
>>> implementations. I've been trying to improve this situation for a long
>>> time, and it's getting old.  
>>
>> Which is why I am asking genuinely what do you think should be done
>> besides doing more code reviews? It does not seem to me that there is an
>> easy way to catch new stats being added with tools/scripts/whatever and
>> then determine what they are about, right?
> 
> I don't have a great way forward in mind, sadly. All I can think of is
> that we should try to create more well defined interfaces and steer
> away from free-form ones.

There is a lot of value in free-form too.

> 
> Example, here if the stats are vxlan decap/encap/error - we should
> expose that from the vxlan module. That way vxlan module defines one
> set of stats for everyone.
> 
> In general unless we attach stats to the object they relate to, we will
> end up building parallel structures for exposing statistics from the
> drivers. I posted a set once which was implementing hierarchical stats,
> but I've abandoned it for this reason.
> 
>>> Please focus on the stats this set adds, instead of fantasizing of what
>>> could be. These are absolutely not implementation specific!  
>>
>> Not sure if fantasizing is quite what I would use. I am just pointing
>> out that given the inability to standardize on statistics maybe we
>> should have namespaces and try our best to have everything fit into the
>> standard namespace along with a standard set of names, and push back
>> whenever we see vendor stats being added (or more pragmatically, ask
>> what they are). But maybe this very idea is moot.
> 
> IDK. I just don't feel like this is going to fly, see how many names
> people invented for the CRC error statistic in ethtool -S, even tho
> there is a standard stat for that! And users are actually parsing the
> output of ethtool -S to get CRC stats because (a) it became the go-to
> place for NIC stats and (b) some drivers forget to report in the
> standard place.
> 
> The cover letter says this set replaces the bad debugfs with a good,
> standard API. It may look good and standard for _vendors_ because they
> will know where to dump their counters, but it makes very little
> difference for _users_. If I have to parse names for every vendor I use,
> I can as well add a per-vendor debugfs path to my script.
> 
> The bar for implementation-specific driver stats has to be high.

My take away from this is you do not like the names - the strings side
of it.

Do you object to the netlink API? The netlink API via devlink?

'perf' has json files to describe and document counters
(tools/perf/pmu-events). Would something like that be acceptable as a
form of in-tree documentation of counters? (vs Documentation/networking
or URLs like
https://community.mellanox.com/s/article/understanding-mlx5-ethtool-counters)

> 
>>>>> If I have to download vendor documentation and tooling, or adapt my own
>>>>> scripts for every new vendor, I could have as well downloaded an SDK.    
>>>>
>>>> Are not you being a bit over dramatic here with your example?   
>>>
>>> I hope not. It's very hard/impossible today to run a fleet of Linux
>>> machines without resorting to vendor tooling.  
>>
>> Your argument was putting on the same level resorting to vendor tooling
>> to extract meaningful statistics/counters versus using a SDK to operate
>> the hardware (this is how I understood it), and I do not believe this is
>> fair.
> 
> Okay, fair. I just think that in datacenter deployments we are way
> closer to the SDK model than people may want to admit.
> 

I do not agree with that; the SDK model means you *must* use vendor code
to make something work. Your argument here is about labels for stats and
an understanding of their meaning.

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