netdev - Re: [RFC PATCH bpf-next] bpf: Introduce bpf

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Message-ID: <3a274610-c407-7a66-4acb-d5dfde0d5951@mojatatu.com>
Date:   Wed, 26 May 2021 14:25:28 -0400
From:   Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com>
To:     Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@...il.com>
Cc:     Cong Wang <xiyou.wangcong@...il.com>,
        David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@...nel.org>,
        John Fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        Lorenz Bauer <lmb@...udflare.com>,
        Linux Kernel Network Developers <netdev@...r.kernel.org>,
        bpf <bpf@...r.kernel.org>, kernel-team <kernel-team@...com>,
        Pedro Tammela <pctammela@...il.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH bpf-next] bpf: Introduce bpf_timer

On 2021-05-26 12:58 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
> On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 11:34:04AM -0400, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote:
>> On 2021-05-25 6:08 p.m., Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:09 PM Jamal Hadi Salim <jhs@...atatu.com> wrote:


>>
>> Didnt follow why this wouldnt work in the same way for Array?
> 
> array doesn't have delete.

Ok. But even for arrays if userspace for example does update
of an existing entry we should be able to invoke callback, no?

>> One interesting concept i see come out of this is emulating
>> netlink-like event generation towards user space i.e a user
>> space app listening to changes to a map.
> 
> Folks do it already via ringbuf events. No need for update/delete
> callback to implement such notifications.
> 

Please bear with me:
I know it is trivial to do if you are in control of the kernel
side if your prog creates/updates/deletes map entries. Ive done
it many times with perf event arrays (before ringbuf existed).
But:
What i was referring to is if another entity altogether
(possibly not under your control) was to make that change
from the kernel side then you dont get to know. Same with a
user space program doing a write to the map entry.

If you say this can be done then please do me a kindness and point
me to someone already doing this or some sample code.


>> would like to hear what the proposed ideas are.
>> I see this as a tricky problem to solve - you can make LRU
>> programmable to allow the variety of LRU replacement algos out
>> there but not all encompansing for custom or other types of algos.
>> The problem remains that LRU is very specific to evicting
>> entries that are least used. I can imagine that if i wanted to
>> do a LIFO aging for example then it can be done with some acrobatics
>> as an overlay on top of LRU with all sorts of tweaking.
>> It is sort of fitting a square peg into a round hole - you can do
>> it, but why the torture when you have a flexible architecture.
> 
> Using GC to solve 'hash table is running out of memory' problem is
> exactly the square peg.
> Timers is absolutely wrong way to address memory pressure.
> 
>> We need to provide the mechanisms (I dont see a disagreement on
>> need for timers at least).
> 
> It's an explicit non-goal for timer api to be used as GC for conntrack.

Agreed.

> You'll be able to use it as such, but when it fails to scale
> (as it's going to happen with any timer implementation) don't blame
> infrastructure for that.

Agreed again. Timers are a necessary part of the toolset.
I hope i was reading as claiming that just firing random
timers equates to gc or that on its own will scale.


>> A reasonable approach is to let the policy be defined
>> from user space. I may want the timer to keep polling
>> a map that is not being updated until the next program
>> restarts and starts updating it.
>> I thought Cong's approach with timerids/maps was a good
>> way to achieve control.
> 
> No, it's not a policy, and no, it doesn't belong to user space,
> and no, Cong's approach has nothing to do with this design choice.

You listed 3 possibilities of what could happen in the use case
i described. One person's meat is another person's poison.
i.e it is about design choice. What i meant by policy is
whether intentionaly or not, Cong's approach had the user able to
control what happens to the timer.

cheers,
jamal