Date:   Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:33:49 -0600
From:   Shuah Khan <skhan@...uxfoundation.org>
To:     Laurent Pinchart <laurent.pinchart@...asonboard.com>
Cc:     Steven Rostedt <rostedt@...dmis.org>,
        Konstantin Ryabitsev <konstantin@...uxfoundation.org>,
        "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" <lkml@...ux.net>,
        David Hildenbrand <david@...hat.com>,
        James Bottomley <James.Bottomley@...senpartnership.com>,
        Greg KH <greg@...ah.com>, Christoph Lameter <cl@...two.de>,
        Theodore Ts'o <tytso@....edu>, Jiri Kosina <jikos@...nel.org>,
        ksummit@...ts.linux.dev, linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-block@...r.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-mm@...ck.org, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-arch@...r.kernel.org, linux-api@...r.kernel.org,
        Shuah Khan <skhan@...uxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: Maintainers / Kernel Summit 2021 planning kick-off

On 6/22/21 4:59 PM, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
> Hi Shuah,
> 
> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 04:33:22PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>> On 6/18/21 7:46 AM, Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 01:55:23PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote:
>>>> On 6/10/21 1:26 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 21:39:49 +0300 Laurent Pinchart wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There will always be more informal discussions between on-site
>>>>>> participants. After all, this is one of the benefits of conferences, by
>>>>>> being all together we can easily organize ad-hoc discussions. This is
>>>>>> traditionally done by finding a not too noisy corner in the conference
>>>>>> center, would it be useful to have more break-out rooms with A/V
>>>>>> equipment than usual ?
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been giving this quite some thought too, and I've come to the
>>>>> understanding (and sure I can be wrong, but I don't think that I am),
>>>>> is that when doing a hybrid event, the remote people will always be
>>>>> "second class citizens" with respect to the communication that is going
>>>>> on. Saying that we can make it the same is not going to happen unless
>>>>> you start restricting what people can do that are present, and that
>>>>> will just destroy the conference IMO.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, I think we should add more to make the communication better
>>>>> for those that are not present. Maybe an idea is to have break outs
>>>>> followed by the presentation and evening events that include remote
>>>>> attendees to discuss with those that are there about what they might
>>>>> have missed. Have incentives at these break outs (free stacks and
>>>>> beer?) to encourage the live attendees to attend and have a discussion
>>>>> with the remote attendees.
>>>>>
>>>>> The presentations would have remote access, where remote attendees can
>>>>> at the very least write in some chat their questions or comments. If
>>>>> video and connectivity is good enough, perhaps have a screen where they
>>>>> can show up and talk, but that may have logistical limitations.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You are absolutely right that the remote people will have a hard time
>>>> participating and keeping up with in-person participants. I have a
>>>> couple of ideas on how we might be able to improve remote experience
>>>> without restricting in-person experience.
>>>>
>>>> - Have one or two moderators per session to watch chat and Q&A to enable
>>>>      remote participants to chime in and participate.
>>>> - Moderators can make sure remote participation doesn't go unnoticed and
>>>>      enable taking turns for remote vs. people participating in person.
>>>>
>>>> It will be change in the way we interact in all in-person sessions for
>>>> sure, however it might enhance the experience for remote attendees.
>>>
>>> A moderator to watch online chat and relay questions is I believe very
>>> good for presentations, it's hard for a presenter to keep an eye on a
>>> screen while having to manage the interaction with the audience in the
>>> room (there's the usual joke of the difference between an introvert and
>>> an extrovert open-source developer is that the extrovert looks at *your*
>>> shoes when talking to you, but in many presentations the speaker
>>> nowadays does a fairly good job as watching the audience, at least from
>>> time to time :-)).
>>>
>>> For workshop or brainstorming types of sessions, the highest barrier to
>>> participation for remote attendees is local attendees not speaking in
>>> microphones. That's the number one rule that moderators would need to
>>> enforce, I think all the rest depends on it. This may require a larger
>>> number of microphones in the room than usual.
>>>
>>
>> Absolutely. Moderator has to make sure the following things happen for
>> this to be effective:
>>
>> - Watch chat and Q&A, Raise hand from remote participants
>> - Enforce some kind of taking turns to allow fairness in
>>     participation
>> - Have the speaker repeat questions asked in the room (we do that now
>>     in some talks - both remote and in-person - chat and Q&A needs
>>     reading out for recording)
>> - Explore live Transcription features available in the virtual conf.
>>     platform. You still need humans watching the transcription.
>> - Have a running session notes combined with transcription.
>>
>> Any of these options aren't sustainable when large number of people
>> are participating remotely or in-person. In general a small number of
>> people participate either in person or remote in any case, based on
>> my observation in remote and in-person settings.
>>
>> Maybe we can experiment with one or two workshops this time around
>> and see how it works out. If we can figure an effective way, it would
>> be beneficial for people that can't travel for one reason or the
>> other.
> 
> Can we nominate moderators ahead of time ? For workshop-style
> discussions, they need to be a person who won't participate actively in
> the discussions, as it's impossible to both contribute and moderate at
> the same time.
> 

Correct. It will be impossible to participate and moderate in workshop
setting. We have to ask for volunteers and nominate moderators ahead of
time.

thanks,
-- Shuah

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