netdev - Re: [PATCH net 1/4] Revert "net/smc: don't wait for send buffer space when data was already sent"

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Message-ID: <YYH8npT0+ww57Gg1@TonyMac-Alibaba>
Date:   Wed, 3 Nov 2021 11:06:06 +0800
From:   Tony Lu <tonylu@...ux.alibaba.com>
To:     Karsten Graul <kgraul@...ux.ibm.com>
Cc:     Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>, davem@...emloft.net,
        netdev@...r.kernel.org, linux-s390@...r.kernel.org,
        linux-rdma@...r.kernel.org, jacob.qi@...ux.alibaba.com,
        xuanzhuo@...ux.alibaba.com, guwen@...ux.alibaba.com,
        dust.li@...ux.alibaba.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH net 1/4] Revert "net/smc: don't wait for send buffer
 space when data was already sent"

On Tue, Nov 02, 2021 at 10:17:15AM +0100, Karsten Graul wrote:
> On 01/11/2021 08:04, Tony Lu wrote:
> > On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 07:38:27AM -0700, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> >> On Thu, 28 Oct 2021 13:57:55 +0200 Karsten Graul wrote:
> >>> So how to deal with all of this? Is it an accepted programming error
> >>> when a user space program gets itself into this kind of situation?
> >>> Since this problem depends on internal send/recv buffer sizes such a
> >>> program might work on one system but not on other systems.
> >>
> >> It's a gray area so unless someone else has a strong opinion we can
> >> leave it as is.
> > 
> > Things might be different. IMHO, the key point of this problem is to
> > implement the "standard" POSIX socket API, or TCP-socket compatible API.
> > 
> >>> At the end the question might be if either such kind of a 'deadlock'
> >>> is acceptable, or if it is okay to have send() return lesser bytes
> >>> than requested.
> >>
> >> Yeah.. the thing is we have better APIs for applications to ask not to
> >> block than we do for applications to block. If someone really wants to
> >> wait for all data to come out for performance reasons they will
> >> struggle to get that behavior. 
> > 
> > IMO, it is better to do something to unify this behavior. Some
> > applications like netperf would be broken, and the people who want to use
> > SMC to run basic benchmark, would be confused about this, and its
> > compatibility with TCP. Maybe we could:
> > 1) correct the behavior of netperf to check the rc as we discussed.
> > 2) "copy" the behavior of TCP, and try to compatiable with TCP, though
> > it is a gray area.
> 
> I have a strong opinion here, so when the question is if the user either
> encounters a deadlock or if send() returns lesser bytes than requested,
> I prefer the latter behavior.
> The second case is much easier to debug for users, they can do something
> to handle the problem (loop around send()), and this case can even be detected
> using strace. But the deadlock case is nearly not debuggable by users and there
> is nothing to prevent it when the workload pattern runs into this situation
> (except to not use blocking sends).

I agree with you. I am curious about this deadlock scene. If it was
convenient, could you provide a reproducible test case? We are also
setting up a SMC CI/CD system to find the compatible and performance
fallback problems. Maybe we could do something to make it better.

Cheers,
Tony Lu