Message-ID: <20211216013403-mutt-send-email-mst@kernel.org>
Date:   Thu, 16 Dec 2021 01:35:04 -0500
From:   "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>
To:     Si-Wei Liu <si-wei.liu@...cle.com>
Cc:     Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>, Eli Cohen <elic@...dia.com>,
        linux-kernel <linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org>,
        virtualization <virtualization@...ts.linux-foundation.org>,
        netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: vdpa legacy guest support (was Re: [PATCH] vdpa/mlx5:
 set_features should allow reset to zero)

On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 06:01:55PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/15/2021 1:33 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 12:52:20PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > 
> > > On 12/14/2021 6:06 PM, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Dec 15, 2021 at 9:05 AM Si-Wei Liu <si-wei.liu@...cle.com> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > On 12/13/2021 9:06 PM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, Dec 13, 2021 at 05:59:45PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > > > > > On 12/12/2021 1:26 AM, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 10, 2021 at 05:44:15PM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > > > > > > > Sorry for reviving this ancient thread. I was kinda lost for the conclusion
> > > > > > > > > it ended up with. I have the following questions,
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 1. legacy guest support: from the past conversations it doesn't seem the
> > > > > > > > > support will be completely dropped from the table, is my understanding
> > > > > > > > > correct? Actually we're interested in supporting virtio v0.95 guest for x86,
> > > > > > > > > which is backed by the spec at
> > > > > > > > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://ozlabs.org/*rusty/virtio-spec/virtio-0.9.5.pdf__;fg!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!dTKmzJwwRsFM7BtSuTDu1cNly5n4XCotH0WYmidzGqHSXt40i7ZU43UcNg7GYxZg$ . Though I'm not sure
> > > > > > > > > if there's request/need to support wilder legacy virtio versions earlier
> > > > > > > > > beyond.
> > > > > > > > I personally feel it's less work to add in kernel than try to
> > > > > > > > work around it in userspace. Jason feels differently.
> > > > > > > > Maybe post the patches and this will prove to Jason it's not
> > > > > > > > too terrible?
> > > > > > > I suppose if the vdpa vendor does support 0.95 in the datapath and ring
> > > > > > > layout level and is limited to x86 only, there should be easy way out.
> > > > > > Note a subtle difference: what matters is that guest, not host is x86.
> > > > > > Matters for emulators which might reorder memory accesses.
> > > > > > I guess this enforcement belongs in QEMU then?
> > > > > Right, I mean to get started, the initial guest driver support and the
> > > > > corresponding QEMU support for transitional vdpa backend can be limited
> > > > > to x86 guest/host only. Since the config space is emulated in QEMU, I
> > > > > suppose it's not hard to enforce in QEMU.
> > > > It's more than just config space, most devices have headers before the buffer.
> > > The ordering in datapath (data VQs) would have to rely on vendor's support.
> > > Since ORDER_PLATFORM is pretty new (v1.1), I guess vdpa h/w vendor nowadays
> > > can/should well support the case when ORDER_PLATFORM is not acked by the
> > > driver (actually this feature is filtered out by the QEMU vhost-vdpa driver
> > > today), even with v1.0 spec conforming and modern only vDPA device. The
> > > control VQ is implemented in software in the kernel, which can be easily
> > > accommodated/fixed when needed.
> > > 
> > > > > QEMU can drive GET_LEGACY,
> > > > > GET_ENDIAN et al ioctls in advance to get the capability from the
> > > > > individual vendor driver. For that, we need another negotiation protocol
> > > > > similar to vhost_user's protocol_features between the vdpa kernel and
> > > > > QEMU, way before the guest driver is ever probed and its feature
> > > > > negotiation kicks in. Not sure we need a GET_MEMORY_ORDER ioctl call
> > > > > from the device, but we can assume weak ordering for legacy at this
> > > > > point (x86 only)?
> > > > I'm lost here, we have get_features() so:
> > > I assume here you refer to get_device_features() that Eli just changed the
> > > name.
> > > > 1) VERSION_1 means the device uses LE if provided, otherwise natvie
> > > > 2) ORDER_PLATFORM means device requires platform ordering
> > > > 
> > > > Any reason for having a new API for this?
> > > Are you going to enforce all vDPA hardware vendors to support the
> > > transitional model for legacy guest? meaning guest not acknowledging
> > > VERSION_1 would use the legacy interfaces captured in the spec section 7.4
> > > (regarding ring layout, native endianness, message framing, vq alignment of
> > > 4096, 32bit feature, no features_ok bit in status, IO port interface i.e.
> > > all the things) instead? Noted we don't yet have a set_device_features()
> > > that allows the vdpa device to tell whether it is operating in transitional
> > > or modern-only mode. For software virtio, all support for the legacy part in
> > > a transitional model has been built up there already, however, it's not easy
> > > for vDPA vendors to implement all the requirements for an all-or-nothing
> > > legacy guest support (big endian guest for example). To these vendors, the
> > > legacy support within a transitional model is more of feature to them and
> > > it's best to leave some flexibility for them to implement partial support
> > > for legacy. That in turn calls out the need for a vhost-user protocol
> > > feature like negotiation API that can prohibit those unsupported guest
> > > setups to as early as backend_init before launching the VM.
> > Right. Of note is the fact that it's a spec bug which I
> > hope yet to fix, though due to existing guest code the
> > fix won't be complete.
> I thought at one point you pointed out to me that the spec does allow config
> space read before claiming features_ok, and only config write before
> features_ok is prohibited. I haven't read up the full thread of Halil's
> VERSION_1 for transitional big endian device yet, but what is the spec bug
> you hope to fix?

Allowing config space reads before features_ok seemed useful years ago
but in practice is only causing bugs and complicating device design.

> 
> > 
> > WRT ioctls, One thing we can do though is abuse set_features
> > where it's called by QEMU early on with just the VERSION_1
> > bit set, to distinguish between legacy and modern
> > interface. This before config space accesses and FEATURES_OK.
> > 
> > Halil has been working on this, pls take a look and maybe help him out.
> Interesting thread, am reading now and see how I may leverage or help there.
> 
> > > > > > > I
> > > > > > > checked with Eli and other Mellanox/NVDIA folks for hardware/firmware level
> > > > > > > 0.95 support, it seems all the ingredient had been there already dated back
> > > > > > > to the DPDK days. The only major thing limiting is in the vDPA software that
> > > > > > > the current vdpa core has the assumption around VIRTIO_F_ACCESS_PLATFORM for
> > > > > > > a few DMA setup ops, which is virtio 1.0 only.
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > 2. suppose some form of legacy guest support needs to be there, how do we
> > > > > > > > > deal with the bogus assumption below in vdpa_get_config() in the short term?
> > > > > > > > > It looks one of the intuitive fix is to move the vdpa_set_features call out
> > > > > > > > > of vdpa_get_config() to vdpa_set_config().
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > >             /*
> > > > > > > > >              * Config accesses aren't supposed to trigger before features are
> > > > > > > > > set.
> > > > > > > > >              * If it does happen we assume a legacy guest.
> > > > > > > > >              */
> > > > > > > > >             if (!vdev->features_valid)
> > > > > > > > >                     vdpa_set_features(vdev, 0);
> > > > > > > > >             ops->get_config(vdev, offset, buf, len);
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > I can post a patch to fix 2) if there's consensus already reached.
> > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > > > -Siwei
> > > > > > > > I'm not sure how important it is to change that.
> > > > > > > > In any case it only affects transitional devices, right?
> > > > > > > > Legacy only should not care ...
> > > > > > > Yes I'd like to distinguish legacy driver (suppose it is 0.95) against the
> > > > > > > modern one in a transitional device model rather than being legacy only.
> > > > > > > That way a v0.95 and v1.0 supporting vdpa parent can support both types of
> > > > > > > guests without having to reconfigure. Or are you suggesting limit to legacy
> > > > > > > only at the time of vdpa creation would simplify the implementation a lot?
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > > > -Siwei
> > > > > > I don't know for sure. Take a look at the work Halil was doing
> > > > > > to try and support transitional devices with BE guests.
> > > > > Hmmm, we can have those endianness ioctls defined but the initial QEMU
> > > > > implementation can be started to support x86 guest/host with little
> > > > > endian and weak memory ordering first. The real trick is to detect
> > > > > legacy guest - I am not sure if it's feasible to shift all the legacy
> > > > > detection work to QEMU, or the kernel has to be part of the detection
> > > > > (e.g. the kick before DRIVER_OK thing we have to duplicate the tracking
> > > > > effort in QEMU) as well. Let me take a further look and get back.
> > > > Michael may think differently but I think doing this in Qemu is much easier.
> > > I think the key is whether we position emulating legacy interfaces in QEMU
> > > doing translation on top of a v1.0 modern-only device in the kernel, or we
> > > allow vdpa core (or you can say vhost-vdpa) and vendor driver to support a
> > > transitional model in the kernel that is able to work for both v0.95 and
> > > v1.0 drivers, with some slight aid from QEMU for
> > > detecting/emulation/shadowing (for e.g CVQ, I/O port relay). I guess for the
> > > former we still rely on vendor for a performant data vqs implementation,
> > > leaving the question to what it may end up eventually in the kernel is
> > > effectively the latter).
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > -Siwei
> > 
> > My suggestion is post the kernel patches, and we can evaluate
> > how much work they are.
> Thanks for the feedback. I will take some read then get back, probably after
> the winter break. Stay tuned.
> 
> Thanks,
> -Siwei
> 
> > 
> > > > Thanks
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > > Meanwhile, I'll check internally to see if a legacy only model would
> > > > > work. Thanks.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > -Siwei
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > On 3/2/2021 2:53 AM, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On 2021/3/2 5:47 下午, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Mar 01, 2021 at 11:56:50AM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 2021/3/1 5:34 上午, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 10:24:41AM -0800, Si-Wei Liu wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Detecting it isn't enough though, we will need a new ioctl to notify
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the kernel that it's a legacy guest. Ugh :(
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, although I think adding an ioctl is doable, may I
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > know what the use
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > case there will be for kernel to leverage such info
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > directly? Is there a
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > case QEMU can't do with dedicate ioctls later if there's indeed
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > differentiation (legacy v.s. modern) needed?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW a good API could be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > #define VHOST_SET_ENDIAN _IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > #define VHOST_GET_ENDIAN _IOW(VHOST_VIRTIO, ?, int)
> > > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > > we did it per vring but maybe that was a mistake ...
> > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, I wonder whether it's good time to just not support
> > > > > > > > > > > > legacy driver
> > > > > > > > > > > > for vDPA. Consider:
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > 1) It's definition is no-normative
> > > > > > > > > > > > 2) A lot of budren of codes
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > So qemu can still present the legacy device since the config
> > > > > > > > > > > > space or other
> > > > > > > > > > > > stuffs that is presented by vhost-vDPA is not expected to be
> > > > > > > > > > > > accessed by
> > > > > > > > > > > > guest directly. Qemu can do the endian conversion when necessary
> > > > > > > > > > > > in this
> > > > > > > > > > > > case?
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > > Overall I would be fine with this approach but we need to avoid breaking
> > > > > > > > > > > working userspace, qemu releases with vdpa support are out there and
> > > > > > > > > > > seem to work for people. Any changes need to take that into account
> > > > > > > > > > > and document compatibility concerns.
> > > > > > > > > > Agree, let me check.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > >       I note that any hardware
> > > > > > > > > > > implementation is already broken for legacy except on platforms with
> > > > > > > > > > > strong ordering which might be helpful in reducing the scope.
> > > > > > > > > > Yes.
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > Thanks
> > > > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > > > 

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