netdev - Re: [PATCH net] veth: Add updating of trans

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Message-ID: <20220617175550.6a3602ab@kernel.org>
Date:   Fri, 17 Jun 2022 17:55:50 -0700
From:   Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>
To:     Jay Vosburgh <jay.vosburgh@...onical.com>
Cc:     "David S. Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>,
        Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>,
        Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, netdev@...r.kernel.org,
        Jonathan Toppins <jtoppins@...hat.com>,
        Veaceslav Falico <vfalico@...il.com>,
        Andy Gospodarek <andy@...yhouse.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH net] veth: Add updating of trans_start

On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 17:27:43 -0700 Jay Vosburgh wrote:
> Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org> wrote:
> >On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 09:42:55 -0700 Jay Vosburgh wrote:  
> >> 	In this case, it's to permit the bonding ARP / ND monitor to
> >> function if that software device (veth in this case) is added to a bond
> >> using the ARP / ND monitor (which relies on trans_start, and has done so
> >> since at least 2.6.0).  I'll agree it's a niche case; this was broken
> >> for veth for quite some time, but veth + netns is handy for software
> >> only test cases, so it seems worth doing.  
> >
> >I presume it needs it to check if the device has transmitted anything
> >in the last unit of time, can we look at the device stats for LLTX for
> >example?  
> 
> 	Yes, that's the use case.  
> 
> 	Hmm.  Polling the device stats would likely work for software
> devices, although the unit of time varies (some checks are fixed at one
> unit, but others can be N units depending on the missed_max option
> setting).
> 
> 	Polling hardware devices might not work; as I recall, some
> devices only update the statistics on timespans on the order of seconds,
> e.g., bnx2 and tg3 appear to update once per second.  But those do
> update trans_start.

Right, unfortunately.

> 	The question then becomes how to distinguish a software LLTX
> device from a hardware LLTX device.

If my way of thinking about trans_start is correct then we can test 
for presence of ndo_tx_timeout. Anything that has the tx_timeout NDO
must be maintaining trans_start.

> >> 	I didn't exhaustively check all LLTX drivers, but, e.g., tun
> >> does update trans_start:
> >> 
> >> drivers/net/tun.c:
> >> 
> >>        /* NETIF_F_LLTX requires to do our own update of trans_start */
> >>         queue = netdev_get_tx_queue(dev, txq);
> >>         txq_trans_cond_update(queue);  
> >
> >Well, it is _an_ example, but the only one I can find. And the
> >justification is the same as yours now -- make bonding work a31d27fb.
> >Because of that I don't think we can use tun as a proof that trans 
> >start should be updated on LLTX devices as a general, stack-wide rule.
> >There's a lot more LLTX devices than veth and tun.  
> 
> 	I'm not suggesting that all (software) LLTX software devices be
> updated.

The ones which are not updated would remain broken then, no?
Waiting for someone to try to bond them and discover it doesn't work.