Message-ID: <CALvZod6EHB74L2kJz7=gv3ev3+UTbBX3a1AsRgF2rgesjXCx3w@mail.gmail.com>
Date:   Mon, 22 Aug 2022 09:12:25 -0700
From:   Shakeel Butt <shakeelb@...gle.com>
To:     Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org>, Mina Almasry <almasrymina@...gle.com>
Cc:     Yafang Shao <laoar.shao@...il.com>,
        Alexei Starovoitov <ast@...nel.org>,
        Daniel Borkmann <daniel@...earbox.net>,
        Andrii Nakryiko <andrii@...nel.org>, Martin Lau <kafai@...com>,
        Song Liu <songliubraving@...com>, Yonghong Song <yhs@...com>,
        john fastabend <john.fastabend@...il.com>,
        KP Singh <kpsingh@...nel.org>,
        Stanislav Fomichev <sdf@...gle.com>,
        Hao Luo <haoluo@...gle.com>, jolsa@...nel.org,
        Johannes Weiner <hannes@...xchg.org>,
        Michal Hocko <mhocko@...nel.org>,
        Roman Gushchin <roman.gushchin@...ux.dev>,
        Muchun Song <songmuchun@...edance.com>,
        Andrew Morton <akpm@...ux-foundation.org>,
        Zefan Li <lizefan.x@...edance.com>,
        Cgroups <cgroups@...r.kernel.org>,
        netdev <netdev@...r.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@...r.kernel.org>,
        Linux MM <linux-mm@...ck.org>,
        Yosry Ahmed <yosryahmed@...gle.com>,
        Dan Schatzberg <schatzberg.dan@...il.com>,
        Lennart Poettering <lennart@...ttering.net>
Subject: Re: [RFD RESEND] cgroup: Persistent memory usage tracking

Ccing Mina.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2022 at 4:29 AM Tejun Heo <tj@...nel.org> wrote:
>
> (Sorry, this is a resend. I messed up the header in the first posting.)
>
> Hello,
>
> This thread started on a bpf-specific memory tracking change proposal and
> went south, but a lot of people who would be interested are already cc'd, so
> I'm hijacking it to discuss what to do w/ persistent memory usage tracking.
>
> Cc'ing Mina and Yosry who were involved in the discussions on the similar
> problem re. tmpfs, Dan Schatzberg who has a lot more prod knowledge and
> experience than me, and Lennart for his thoughts from systemd side.
>
> The root problem is that there are resources (almost solely memory
> currently) that outlive a given instance of a, to use systemd-lingo,
> service. Page cache is the most common case.
>
> Let's say there's system.slice/hello.service. When it runs for the first
> time, page cache backing its binary will be charged to hello.service.
> However, when it restarts after e.g. a config change, when the initial
> hello.service cgroup gets destroyed, we reparent the page cache charges to
> the parent system.slice and when the second instance starts, its binary will
> stay charged to system.slice. Over time, some may get reclaimed and
> refaulted into the new hello.service but that's not guaranteed and most hot
> pages likely won't.
>
> The same problem exists for any memory which is not freed synchronously when
> the current instance exits. While this isn't a problem for many cases, it's
> not difficult to imagine situations where the amount of memory which ends up
> getting pushed to the parent is significant, even clear majority, with big
> page cache footprint, persistent tmpfs instances and so on, creating issues
> with accounting accuracy and thus control.
>
> I think there are two broad issues to discuss here:
>
> [1] Can this be solved by layering the instance cgroups under persistent
>     entity cgroup?
>
> So, instead of systemd.slice/hello.service, the application runs inside
> something like systemd.slice/hello.service/hello.service.instance and the
> service-level cgroup hello.service is not destroyed as long as it is
> something worth tracking on the system.
>
> The benefits are
>
> a. While requiring changing how userland organizes cgroup hiearchy, it is a
>    straight-forward extension of the current architecture and doesn't
>    require any conceptual or structural changes. All the accounting and
>    control schemes work exactly the same as before. The only difference is
>    that we now have a persistent entity representing each service as we want
>    to track their persistent resource usages.
>
> b. Per-instance tracking and control is optional. To me, it seems that the
>    persistent resource usages would be more meaningful than per-instance and
>    tracking down to the persistent usages shouldn't add noticeable runtime
>    overheads while keeping per-instance process management niceties and
>    allowing use cases to opt-in for per-instance resource tracking and
>    control as needed.
>
> The complications are:
>
> a. It requires changing cgroup hierarchy in a very visible way.
>
> b. What should be the lifetime rules for persistent cgroups? Do we keep them
>    around forever or maybe they can be created on the first use and kept
>    around until the service is removed from the system? When the persistent
>    cgroup is removed, do we need to make sure that the remaining resource
>    usages are low enough? Note that this problem exists for any approach
>    that tries to track persistent usages no matter how it's done.
>
> c. Do we need to worry about nesting overhead? Given that there's no reason
>    to enable controllers w/o persisten states for the instance level and the
>    nesting overhead is pretty low for memcg, this doesn't seem like a
>    problem to me. If this becomes a problem, we just need to fix it.
>
> A couple alternatives discussed are:
>
> a. Userspace keeps reusing the same cgroup for different instances of the
>    same service. This simplifies some aspects while making others more
>    complicated. e.g. Determining the current instance's CPU or IO usages now
>    require the monitoring software remembering what they were when this
>    instance started and calculating the deltas. Also, if some use cases want
>    to distinguish persistent vs. instance usages (more on this later), this
>    isn't gonna work. That said, this definitely is attractive in that it
>    miminizes overt user visible changes.
>
> b. Memory is disassociated rather than just reparented on cgroup destruction
>    and get re-charged to the next first user. This is attractive in that it
>    doesn't require any userspace changes; however, I'm not sure how this
>    would work for non-pageable memory usages such as bpf maps. How would we
>    detect the next first usage?
>
>
> [2] Whether and how to solve first and second+ instance charge differences.
>
> If we take the layering approach, the first instance will get charged for
> all memory that it uses while the second+ instances likely won't get charged
> for a lot of persistent usages. I don't think there is a consensus on
> whether this needs to be solved and I don't have enough context to form a
> strong opinion. memcg folks are a lot better equipped to make this decision.
>
> Assuming this needs to be solved, here's a braindump to be taken with a big
> pinch of salt:
>
> I have a bit of difficult time imagining a perfect solution given that
> whether a given page cache page is persistent or not would be really
> difficult to know (or maybe all page cache is persistent by default while
> anon is not). However, the problem still seems worthwhile to consider for
> big ticket items such as persistent tmpfs mounts and huge bpf maps as they
> can easily make the differences really big.
>
> If we want to solve this problem, here are options that I can think of:
>
> a. Let userspace put the charges where they belong using the current
>    mechanisms. ie. Create persistent entities in the persistent parent
>    cgroup while there's no current instance.
>
>    Pro: It won't require any major kernel or interface changes. There still
>    need to be some tweaking such as allowing tmpfs pages to be always
>    charged to the cgroup which created the instance (maybe as long as it's
>    an ancestor of the faulting cgroup?) but nothing too invasive.
>
>    Con: It may not be flexible enough.
>
> b. Let userspace specify which cgroup to charge for some of constructs like
>    tmpfs and bpf maps. The key problems with this approach are
>
>    1. How to grant/deny what can be charged where. We must ensure that a
>       descendant can't move charges up or across the tree without the
>       ancestors allowing it.
>
>    2. How to specify the cgroup to charge. While specifying the target
>       cgroup directly might seem like an obvious solution, it has a couple
>       rather serious problems. First, if the descendant is inside a cgroup
>       namespace, it might be able to see the target cgroup at all. Second,
>       it's an interface which is likely to cause misunderstandings on how it
>       can be used. It's too broad an interface.
>
>    One solution that I can think of is leveraging the resource domain
>    concept which is currently only used for threaded cgroups. All memory
>    usages of threaded cgroups are charged to their resource domain cgroup
>    which hosts the processes for those threads. The persistent usages have a
>    similar pattern, so maybe the service level cgroup can declare that it's
>    the encompassing resource domain and the instance cgroup can say whether
>    it's gonna charge e.g. the tmpfs instance to its own or the encompassing
>    resource domain.
>
>    This has the benefit that the user only needs to indicate its intention
>    without worrying about how cgroups are composed and what their IDs are.
>    It just indicates whether the given resource is persistent and if the
>    cgroup hierarchy is set up for that, it gets charged that way and if not
>    it can be just charged to itself.
>
>    This is a shower thought but, if we allow nesting such domains (and maybe
>    name them), we can use it for shared resources too so that co-services
>    are put inside a shared slice and shared resources are pushed to the
>    slice level.
>
> This became pretty long. I obviously have a pretty strong bias towards
> solving this within the current basic architecture but other than that most
> of these decisions are best made by memcg folks. We can hopefully build some
> consensus on the issue.
>
> Thanks.
>
> --
> tejun

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