Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:08:45 -0700
From: Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>
To: Vladimir Oltean <vladimir.oltean@....com>
Cc: Köry Maincent <kory.maincent@...tlin.com>,
 netdev@...r.kernel.org, glipus@...il.com, maxime.chevallier@...tlin.com,
 vadim.fedorenko@...ux.dev, richardcochran@...il.com,
 gerhard@...leder-embedded.com, thomas.petazzoni@...tlin.com,
 krzysztof.kozlowski+dt@...aro.org, robh+dt@...nel.org,
 linux@...linux.org.uk
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next RFC v4 4/5] net: Let the active time stamping
 layer be selectable.

On Thu, 11 May 2023 23:54:35 +0300 Vladimir Oltean wrote:
> On Thu, May 11, 2023 at 09:25:39AM -0700, Jakub Kicinski wrote:
> > > It's the first time I become aware of the issue of PHY timestamping in
> > > monolithic drivers that don't use phylib, and it's actually a very good
> > > point. I guess that input gives a clearer set of constraints for Köry to
> > > design an API where the selected timestamping layer is maybe passed to
> > > ndo_hwtstamp_set() and MAC drivers are obliged to look at it.
> > > 
> > > OTOH, a complaint about the current ndo_eth_ioctl() -> phy_mii_ioctl()
> > > code path was that phylib PHY drivers need to have the explicit blessing
> > > from the MAC driver in order to enable timestamping. This patch set
> > > attempts to circumvent that, and you're basically saying that it shouldn't.  
> > 
> > Yes, we don't want to lose the simplification benefit for the common
> > cases.  
> 
> While I'm all for simplification in general, let's not take that for
> granted and see what it implies, first.
> 
> If the new default behavior for the common case is going to be to bypass
> the MAC's ndo_hwtstamp_set(), then MAC drivers which didn't explicitly
> allow phylib PHY timestamping will now do.
> 
> Let's group them into:
> 
> (A) MAC drivers where that is perfectly fine
> 
> (B) MAC drivers with forwarding offload, which would forward/flood PTP
>     frames carrying PHY timestamps
> 
> (C) "solipsistic" MAC drivers which assume that any skb with
>     SKBTX_HW_TSTAMP is a skb for *me* to timestamp
> 
> Going for the simplification would mean making sure that cases (B)
> and (C) are well handled, and have a reasonable chance of not getting
> reintroduced in the future.
> 
> For case (B) it would mean patching all existing switch drivers which
> don't allow PHY timestamping to still not allow PHY timestamping, and
> fixing those switch drivers which allow PHY timestamping but don't set
> up traps (probably those weren't tested in a bridging configuration).
> 
> For case (C) it would mean scanning all MAC drivers for bugs akin to the
> one fixed in commit c26a2c2ddc01 ("gianfar: Fix TX timestamping with a
> stacked DSA driver"). I did that once, but it was years ago and I can't
> guarantee what is the current state or that I didn't miss anything.
> For example, I missed the minor fact that igc would count skbs
> timestamped by a non-igc entity in its TX path as 'tx_hwtstamp_skipped'
> packets, visible in ethtool -S:
> https://lore.kernel.org/intel-wired-lan/20230504235233.1850428-2-vinicius.gomes@intel.com/
> 
> It has to be said that nowadays, Documentation/networking/timestamping.rst
> does warn about stacked PHCs, and those who read will find it. Also,
> ptp4l nowadays warns if there are multiple TX timestamps received for
> the same skb, and that's a major user of this functionality. So I don't
> mean to point this case out as a form of discouragement, but it is going
> to be a bit of a roll of dice.

I think it's worth calling out that we may be touching most / all
drivers anyway to transition them from the IOCTL NDO to a normal
timestamp NDO.

> The alternative (ditching the simplification) is that someone still
> has to code up the glue logic from ndo_hwtstamp_set() -> phy_mii_ioctl(),
> and that presumes some minimal level of testing, which we are now
> "simplifying" away.
> 
> The counter-argument against ditching the simplification is that DSA
> is also vulnerable to the bugs from case (C), but as opposed to PHY
> timestamping where currently MACs need to voluntarily pass the
> phy_mii_ioctl() call themselves, MACs don't get to choose if they want
> to act as DSA masters or not. That gives some more confidence that bugs
> in this area might not be so common, and leaves just (B) a concern.
> 
> To analyze how common is the common case is a simple matter of counting
> how many drivers among those with SIOCSHWTSTAMP implementations also
> have some form of forwarding offload, OR, as you point out, how many
> don't use phylib.

"Common" is one way of looking at it, another is trying to get the
default ("I didn't know I have to set extra flags") to do the right
thing or fail.

> > I think we should make the "please call me for PHY requests" an opt in.
> > 
> > Annoyingly the "please call me for PHY/all requests" needs to be
> > separate from "this MAC driver supports PHY timestamps". Because in
> > your example the switch driver may not in fact implement PHY stamping,
> > it just wants to know about the configuration.
> > 
> > So we need a bit somewhere (in ops? in some other struct? in output 
> > of get_ts?) to let the driver declare that it wants to see all TS
> > requests. (I've been using bits in ops, IDK if people find that
> > repulsive or neat :))  
> 
> It's either repulsive or neat, depending on the context.
> 
> Last time you suggested something like this in an ops structure was IIRC
> something like whether "MAC Merge is supported". My objection was that
> DSA has a common set of ops structures (dsa_slave_ethtool_ops,
> dsa_slave_netdev_ops) behind which lie different switch families from
> at least 13 vendors. A shared const ops structure is not an appropriate
> means to communicate whether 13 switch vendors support a TSN MAC Merge
> layer or not.
> 
> With declaring interest in all hardware timestamping requests in the
> data path of a MAC, be they MAC-level requests or otherwise, it's a bit
> different, because all DSA switches have one thing in common, which is
> that they're switches, and that is relevant here. So I'm not opposed to
> setting a bit in the ethtool ops structure, at least for DSA that could
> work just fine.
> 
> > Then if bit is not set or NDO returns -EOPNOTSUPP for PHY requests we
> > still try to call the PHY in the core?  
> 
> Well, if there is no interest for special behavior from the MAC driver,
> then I guess the memo is "yolo"...
> 
> But OTOH, if a macro-driver like DSA declares its interest in receiving
> all timestamping requests, but then that particular DSA switch returns
> -EOPNOTSUPP in the ndo_hwtstamp_set() handler, it would be silly for the
> core to still "force the entry" and call phy_mii_ioctl() anyway - because
> we know that's going to be broken.
> 
> So with "NDO returns -EOPNOTSUPP", I hope you don't mean *that* NDO
> (ndo_hwtstamp_set()) but a previously unnamed one that serves the same
> purpose as the capability bit - ndo_hey_are_you_interested_in_this_hwtstamp_request().
> In that case, yes - with -EOPNOTSUPP we're back to "yolo".

Why can't we treat ndo_hwtstamp_set() == -EOPNOTSUPP as a signal 
to call the PHY? ndo_hwtstamp_set() does not exist, we can give
it whatever semantics we want.

> > Separately the MAC driver needs to be able to report what stamping 
> > it supports (DMA, MAC, PHY, as mentioned in reply to patch 2).  
> 
> I'm a bit unclear on that - responded there.

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