Message-ID: <57704b2658e643fce30468dffd8c1477607f59fb.camel@infradead.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2024 17:15:45 +0000
From: David Woodhouse <dwmw2@...radead.org>
To: Peter Hilber <peter.hilber@...nsynergy.com>,
 linux-kernel@...r.kernel.org,  virtualization@...ts.linux.dev,
 virtio-dev@...ts.oasis-open.org,  linux-arm-kernel@...ts.infradead.org,
 linux-rtc@...r.kernel.org,  "virtio-comment@...ts.oasis-open.org"
 <virtio-comment@...ts.oasis-open.org>
Cc: "Christopher S. Hall" <christopher.s.hall@...el.com>, Jason Wang
 <jasowang@...hat.com>, John Stultz <jstultz@...gle.com>, "Michael S.
 Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>, netdev@...r.kernel.org, Richard Cochran
 <richardcochran@...il.com>, Stephen Boyd <sboyd@...nel.org>, Thomas
 Gleixner <tglx@...utronix.de>, Xuan Zhuo <xuanzhuo@...ux.alibaba.com>, Marc
 Zyngier <maz@...nel.org>, Mark Rutland <mark.rutland@....com>, Daniel
 Lezcano <daniel.lezcano@...aro.org>, Alessandro Zummo
 <a.zummo@...ertech.it>,  Alexandre Belloni <alexandre.belloni@...tlin.com>,
 "Ridoux, Julien" <ridouxj@...zon.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH v3 0/7] Add virtio_rtc module and related changes

On Mon, 2024-03-11 at 19:24 +0100, Peter Hilber wrote:
> On 08.03.24 13:33, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > On Fri, 2024-03-08 at 11:32 +0100, Peter Hilber wrote:
> > > On 07.03.24 15:02, David Woodhouse wrote:
> > > > Hm, should we allow UTC? If you tell me the time in UTC, then
> > > > (sometimes) I still don't actually know what the time is, because some
> > > > UTC seconds occur twice. UTC only makes sense if you provide the TAI
> > > > offset, surely? Should the virtio_rtc specification make it mandatory
> > > > to provide such?
> > > > 
> > > > Otherwise you're just designing it to allow crappy hypervisors to
> > > > expose incomplete information.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Hi David,
> > > 
> > > (adding virtio-comment@...ts.oasis-open.org for spec discussion),
> > > 
> > > thank you for your insightful comments. I think I take a broadly similar
> > > view. The reason why the current spec and driver is like this is that I
> > > took a pragmatic approach at first and only included features which work
> > > out-of-the-box for the current Linux ecosystem.
> > > 
> > > The current virtio_rtc features work similar to ptp_kvm, and therefore
> > > can work out-of-the-box with time sync daemons such as chrony.
> > > 
> > > As of RFC spec v3, UTC clock only is allowed. If mandating a TAI clock
> > > as well, I am afraid that
> > > 
> > > - in some (embedded) scenarios, the TAI clock may not be available
> > > 
> > > - crappy hypervisors will pass off the UTC clock as the TAI clock.
> > > 
> > > For the same reasons, I am also not sure about adding a *mandatory* TAI
> > > offset to each readout. I don't know user-space software which would
> > > leverage this already (at least not through the PTP clock interface).
> > > And why would such software not go straight for the TAI clock instead?
> > > 
> > > How about adding a requirement to the spec that the virtio-rtc device
> > > SHOULD expose the TAI clock whenever it is available - would this
> > > address your concerns?
> > 
> > I think that would be too easy for implementors to miss, or decide not
> > to obey. Or to get *wrong*, by exposing a TAI clock but actually
> > putting UTC in it.
> > 
> > I think I prefer to mandate the tai_offset field with the UTC clock.
> > Crappy implementations will just set it to zero, but at least that
> > gives a clear signal to the guests that it's *their* problem to
> > resolve.
> 
> To me there are some open questions regarding how this would work. Is there
> a use case for this with the v3 clock reading methods, or would it be
> enough to address this with the Virtio timekeeper?
> 
> Looking at clock_adjtime(2), the tai_offset could be exposed, but probably
> best alongside some additional information about leap seconds. I am not
> aware about any user-space user. In addition, leap second smearing should
> also be addressed.
> 

Is there even a standard yet for leap-smearing? Will it be linear over
1000 seconds like UTC-SLS? Or semi-raised-cosine over 24 hours, which I
think is what Google does? Meta does something different again, don't
they?

Exposing UTC as the only clock reference is bad enough; when leap
seconds happen there's a whole second during which you don't *know*
which second it is. It seems odd to me, for a precision clock to be
deliberately ambiguous about what the time is!

But if the virtio-rtc clock is defined as UTC and then expose something
*different* in it, that's even worse. You potentially end up providing
inaccurate time for a whole *day* leading up to the leap second.

I think you're right that leap second smearing should be addressed. At
the very least, by making it clear that the virtio-rtc clock which
advertises UTC shall be used *only* for UTC, never UTC-SLS or any other
yet-to-be-defined variant.

Please make it explicit that any hypervisor which wants to advertise a
smeared clock shall define a new type which specifies the precise
smearing algorithm and cannot be conflated with the one you're defining
here.

> > One other thing to note is I think we're being very naïve about the TSC
> > on x86 hosts. Theoretically, the TSC for every vCPU might run at a
> > different frequency, and even if they run at the same frequency they
> > might be offset from each other. I'm happy to be naïve but I think we
> > should be *explicitly* so, and just say for example that it's defined
> > against vCPU0 so if other vCPUs are different then all bets are off.
> 
> ATM Virtio has no notion of vCPUs, or vCPU topology. So I wonder if you
> have an opinion on how to represent this in a platform-independent way.

Well, it doesn't have a notion of TSCs either; you include that by
implicit reference don't you?


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