netdev - Re: [PATCH net-next 0/2] tcp: add sysctl_tcp_rto_min

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Message-ID: <CAL+tcoDLZ-VXOHphM_=qv5qO74rFOLYjch5QrHXgiVAk52c9Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2024 17:30:17 +0800
From: Jason Xing <kerneljasonxing@...il.com>
To: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>
Cc: Kevin Yang <yyd@...gle.com>, Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, 
	David Miller <davem@...emloft.net>, Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next 0/2] tcp: add sysctl_tcp_rto_min_us

On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 5:23 PM Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 10:44 AM Jason Xing <kerneljasonxing@...il.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Eric,
> >
> > On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 3:39 PM Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 9:00 AM Jason Xing <kerneljasonxing@...il.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 2:43 PM Jason Xing <kerneljasonxing@...il.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hello Kevin,
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, May 29, 2024 at 1:13 AM Kevin Yang <yyd@...gle.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Adding a sysctl knob to allow user to specify a default
> > > > > > rto_min at socket init time.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wonder what the advantage of this new sysctl knob is since we have
> > > > > had BPF or something like that to tweak the rto min already?
> > > > >
> > > > > There are so many places/parameters of the TCP stack that can be
> > > > > exposed to the user side and adjusted by new sysctls...
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Jason
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > After this patch series, the rto_min will has multiple sources:
> > > > > > route option has the highest precedence, followed by the
> > > > > > TCP_BPF_RTO_MIN socket option, followed by this new
> > > > > > tcp_rto_min_us sysctl.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Kevin Yang (2):
> > > > > >   tcp: derive delack_max with tcp_rto_min helper
> > > > > >   tcp: add sysctl_tcp_rto_min_us
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Documentation/networking/ip-sysctl.rst | 13 +++++++++++++
> > > > > >  include/net/netns/ipv4.h               |  1 +
> > > > > >  net/ipv4/sysctl_net_ipv4.c             |  8 ++++++++
> > > > > >  net/ipv4/tcp.c                         |  3 ++-
> > > > > >  net/ipv4/tcp_ipv4.c                    |  1 +
> > > > > >  net/ipv4/tcp_output.c                  | 11 ++---------
> > > > > >  6 files changed, 27 insertions(+), 10 deletions(-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > 2.45.1.288.g0e0cd299f1-goog
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Oh, I think you should have added Paolo as well.
> > > >
> > > > +Paolo Abeni
> > >
> > > Many cloud customers do not have any BPF expertise.
> > > If they use existing BPF programs (added by a product), they might not
> > > have the ability to change it.
> > >
> > > We tried advising them to use route attributes, after
> > > commit bbf80d713fe75cfbecda26e7c03a9a8d22af2f4f ("tcp: derive
> > > delack_max from rto_min")
> > >
> > > Alas, dhcpd was adding its own routes, without the "rto_min 5"
> > > attribute, then systemd came...
> > > Lots of frustration, lots of wasted time, for something that has been
> > > used for more than a decade
> > > in Google DC.
> > >
> > > With a sysctl, we could have saved months of SWE, and helped our
> > > customers sooner.
> >
> > I'm definitely aware of the importance of this kind of sysctl knob.
> > Many years ago (around 6 or 7 years ago), we already implemented
> > similar things in the private kernel.
> >
> > For a long time, netdev guys often proposed the question as I did in
> > the previous email. I'm not against it, just repeating the same
> > question and asking ourselves again: is it really necessary? We still
> > have a lot of places to tune/control by introducing new sysctl.
> >
> > For a long time, there have been plenty of papers studying different
> > combinations of different parameters in TCP stack so that they can
> > serve one particular case well.
> >
> > Do we also need to expose remaining possible parameters to the user
> > side? Just curious...
>
> You know, counting CLOSE_WAIT can be done with  eBPF program just fine.
>
> I think long-time TCP maintainers like Eric Dumazet, Neal Cardwell,
> and Yuchung Cheng know better,
> you will have to trust us.

You get me wrong, Eric. I trust you, of course. I'm just out of
curiosity because I saw some threads facing the same question before.

And, as I said, it has been used in our private kernel for a long
time. So it's useful.

BTW, what do you think of that close-wait patch since you mention it.

Thanks,
Jason