netdev - Re: [patch net-next] virtio_net: add support for Byte Queue Limits

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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 11:57:37 +0200
From: Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us>
To: Jason Wang <jasowang@...hat.com>
Cc: "Michael S. Tsirkin" <mst@...hat.com>,
	Jason Xing <kerneljasonxing@...il.com>,
	Heng Qi <hengqi@...ux.alibaba.com>, davem@...emloft.net,
	edumazet@...gle.com, kuba@...nel.org, pabeni@...hat.com,
	xuanzhuo@...ux.alibaba.com, virtualization@...ts.linux.dev,
	ast@...nel.org, daniel@...earbox.net, hawk@...nel.org,
	john.fastabend@...il.com, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [patch net-next] virtio_net: add support for Byte Queue Limits

Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 08:47:43AM CEST, jasowang@...hat.com wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 2:39 PM Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us> wrote:
>>
>> Fri, Jun 07, 2024 at 08:25:19AM CEST, jasowang@...hat.com wrote:
>> >On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 9:45 PM Jiri Pirko <jiri@...nulli.us> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Thu, Jun 06, 2024 at 09:56:50AM CEST, jasowang@...hat.com wrote:
>> >> >On Thu, Jun 6, 2024 at 2:05 PM Michael S. Tsirkin <mst@...hat.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Jun 06, 2024 at 12:25:15PM +0800, Jason Wang wrote:
>> >> >> > > If the codes of orphan mode don't have an impact when you enable
>> >> >> > > napi_tx mode, please keep it if you can.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > For example, it complicates BQL implementation.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Thanks
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I very much doubt sending interrupts to a VM can
>> >> >> *on all benchmarks* compete with not sending interrupts.
>> >> >
>> >> >It should not differ too much from the physical NIC. We can have one
>> >> >more round of benchmarks to see the difference.
>> >> >
>> >> >But if NAPI mode needs to win all of the benchmarks in order to get
>> >> >rid of orphan, that would be very difficult. Considering various bugs
>> >> >will be fixed by dropping skb_orphan(), it would be sufficient if most
>> >> >of the benchmark doesn't show obvious differences.
>> >> >
>> >> >Looking at git history, there're commits that removes skb_orphan(), for example:
>> >> >
>> >> >commit 8112ec3b8722680251aecdcc23dfd81aa7af6340
>> >> >Author: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>
>> >> >Date:   Fri Sep 28 07:53:26 2012 +0000
>> >> >
>> >> >    mlx4: dont orphan skbs in mlx4_en_xmit()
>> >> >
>> >> >    After commit e22979d96a55d (mlx4_en: Moving to Interrupts for TX
>> >> >    completions) we no longer need to orphan skbs in mlx4_en_xmit()
>> >> >    since skb wont stay a long time in TX ring before their release.
>> >> >
>> >> >    Orphaning skbs in ndo_start_xmit() should be avoided as much as
>> >> >    possible, since it breaks TCP Small Queue or other flow control
>> >> >    mechanisms (per socket limits)
>> >> >
>> >> >    Signed-off-by: Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>
>> >> >    Acked-by: Yevgeny Petrilin <yevgenyp@...lanox.com>
>> >> >    Cc: Or Gerlitz <ogerlitz@...lanox.com>
>> >> >    Signed-off-by: David S. Miller <davem@...emloft.net>
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> So yea, it's great if napi and hardware are advanced enough
>> >> >> that the default can be changed, since this way virtio
>> >> >> is closer to a regular nic and more or standard
>> >> >> infrastructure can be used.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> But dropping it will go against *no breaking userspace* rule.
>> >> >> Complicated? Tough.
>> >> >
>> >> >I don't know what kind of userspace is broken by this. Or why it is
>> >> >not broken since the day we enable NAPI mode by default.
>> >>
>> >> There is a module option that explicitly allows user to set
>> >> napi_tx=false
>> >> or
>> >> napi_weight=0
>> >>
>> >> So if you remove this option or ignore it, both breaks the user
>> >> expectation.
>> >
>> >We can keep them, but I wonder what's the expectation of the user
>> >here? The only thing so far I can imagine is the performance
>> >difference.
>>
>> True.
>>
>> >
>> >> I personally would vote for this breakage. To carry ancient
>> >> things like this one forever does not make sense to me.
>> >
>> >Exactly.
>> >
>> >> While at it,
>> >> let's remove all virtio net module params. Thoughts?
>> >
>> >I tend to
>> >
>> >1) drop the orphan mode, but we can have some benchmarks first
>>
>> Any idea which? That would be really tricky to find the ones where
>> orphan mode makes difference I assume.
>
>True. Personally, I would like to just drop orphan mode. But I'm not
>sure others are happy with this.

How about to do it other way around. I will take a stab at sending patch
removing it. If anyone is against and has solid data to prove orphan
mode is needed, let them provide those.


>
>Thanks
>
>>
>>
>> >2) keep the module parameters
>>
>> and ignore them, correct? Perhaps a warning would be good.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Thanks
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Thanks
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> --
>> >> >> MST
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>