Message-ID: <CAAywjhRmdNJ0HswejGxBn9o4sCF7QM3e88QmyO=uV9nYYYdffw@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2025 15:27:11 -0700
From: Samiullah Khawaja <skhawaja@...gle.com>
To: Martin Karsten <mkarsten@...terloo.ca>
Cc: Jakub Kicinski <kuba@...nel.org>, "David S . Miller" <davem@...emloft.net>, 
	Eric Dumazet <edumazet@...gle.com>, Paolo Abeni <pabeni@...hat.com>, almasrymina@...gle.com, 
	willemb@...gle.com, Joe Damato <joe@...a.to>, netdev@...r.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH net-next v8 0/2] Add support to do threaded napi busy poll

On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 2:27 PM Martin Karsten <mkarsten@...terloo.ca> wrote:
>
> On 2025-08-29 16:49, Samiullah Khawaja wrote:
> > On Fri, Aug 29, 2025 at 11:08 AM Martin Karsten <mkarsten@...terloo.ca> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2025-08-29 13:50, Samiullah Khawaja wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Aug 28, 2025 at 8:15 PM Martin Karsten <mkarsten@...terloo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> On 2025-08-28 21:16, Samiullah Khawaja wrote:
> >>>>> Extend the already existing support of threaded napi poll to do continuous
> >>>>> busy polling.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is used for doing continuous polling of napi to fetch descriptors
> >>>>> from backing RX/TX queues for low latency applications. Allow enabling
> >>>>> of threaded busypoll using netlink so this can be enabled on a set of
> >>>>> dedicated napis for low latency applications.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Once enabled user can fetch the PID of the kthread doing NAPI polling
> >>>>> and set affinity, priority and scheduler for it depending on the
> >>>>> low-latency requirements.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Extend the netlink interface to allow enabling/disabling threaded
> >>>>> busypolling at individual napi level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We use this for our AF_XDP based hard low-latency usecase with usecs
> >>>>> level latency requirement. For our usecase we want low jitter and stable
> >>>>> latency at P99.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Following is an analysis and comparison of available (and compatible)
> >>>>> busy poll interfaces for a low latency usecase with stable P99. This can
> >>>>> be suitable for applications that want very low latency at the expense
> >>>>> of cpu usage and efficiency.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Already existing APIs (SO_BUSYPOLL and epoll) allow busy polling a NAPI
> >>>>> backing a socket, but the missing piece is a mechanism to busy poll a
> >>>>> NAPI instance in a dedicated thread while ignoring available events or
> >>>>> packets, regardless of the userspace API. Most existing mechanisms are
> >>>>> designed to work in a pattern where you poll until new packets or events
> >>>>> are received, after which userspace is expected to handle them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As a result, one has to hack together a solution using a mechanism
> >>>>> intended to receive packets or events, not to simply NAPI poll. NAPI
> >>>>> threaded busy polling, on the other hand, provides this capability
> >>>>> natively, independent of any userspace API. This makes it really easy to
> >>>>> setup and manage.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For analysis we use an AF_XDP based benchmarking tool `xsk_rr`. The
> >>>>> description of the tool and how it tries to simulate the real workload
> >>>>> is following,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - It sends UDP packets between 2 machines.
> >>>>> - The client machine sends packets at a fixed frequency. To maintain the
> >>>>>      frequency of the packet being sent, we use open-loop sampling. That is
> >>>>>      the packets are sent in a separate thread.
> >>>>> - The server replies to the packet inline by reading the pkt from the
> >>>>>      recv ring and replies using the tx ring.
> >>>>> - To simulate the application processing time, we use a configurable
> >>>>>      delay in usecs on the client side after a reply is received from the
> >>>>>      server.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The xsk_rr tool is posted separately as an RFC for tools/testing/selftest.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We use this tool with following napi polling configurations,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Interrupts only
> >>>>> - SO_BUSYPOLL (inline in the same thread where the client receives the
> >>>>>      packet).
> >>>>> - SO_BUSYPOLL (separate thread and separate core)
> >>>>> - Threaded NAPI busypoll
> >>>>>
> >>>>> System is configured using following script in all 4 cases,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> echo 0 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/threaded
> >>>>> echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/kernel/timer_migration
> >>>>> echo off | sudo tee  /sys/devices/system/cpu/smt/control
> >>>>>
> >>>>> sudo ethtool -L eth0 rx 1 tx 1
> >>>>> sudo ethtool -G eth0 rx 1024
> >>>>>
> >>>>> echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/core/rps_sock_flow_entries
> >>>>> echo 0 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/queues/rx-0/rps_cpus
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     # pin IRQs on CPU 2
> >>>>> IRQS="$(gawk '/eth0-(TxRx-)?1/ {match($1, /([0-9]+)/, arr); \
> >>>>>                                 print arr[0]}' < /proc/interrupts)"
> >>>>> for irq in "${IRQS}"; \
> >>>>>         do echo 2 | sudo tee /proc/irq/$irq/smp_affinity_list; done
> >>>>>
> >>>>> echo -1 | sudo tee /proc/sys/kernel/sched_rt_runtime_us
> >>>>>
> >>>>> for i in /sys/devices/virtual/workqueue/*/cpumask; \
> >>>>>                         do echo $i; echo 1,2,3,4,5,6 > $i; done
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if [[ -z "$1" ]]; then
> >>>>>      echo 400 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/core/busy_read
> >>>>>      echo 100 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/napi_defer_hard_irqs
> >>>>>      echo 15000   | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/gro_flush_timeout
> >>>>> fi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> sudo ethtool -C eth0 adaptive-rx off adaptive-tx off rx-usecs 0 tx-usecs 0
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if [[ "$1" == "enable_threaded" ]]; then
> >>>>>      echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/core/busy_poll
> >>>>>      echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/core/busy_read
> >>>>>      echo 100 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/napi_defer_hard_irqs
> >>>>>      echo 15000 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/gro_flush_timeout
> >>>>>      echo 2 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/threaded
> >>>>>      NAPI_T=$(ps -ef | grep napi | grep -v grep | awk '{ print $2 }')
> >>>>>      sudo chrt -f  -p 50 $NAPI_T
> >>>>>
> >>>>>      # pin threaded poll thread to CPU 2
> >>>>>      sudo taskset -pc 2 $NAPI_T
> >>>>> fi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if [[ "$1" == "enable_interrupt" ]]; then
> >>>>>      echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/net/core/busy_read
> >>>>>      echo 0 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/napi_defer_hard_irqs
> >>>>>      echo 15000 | sudo tee /sys/class/net/eth0/gro_flush_timeout
> >>>>> fi
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>
> >>>> The experiment script above does not work, because the sysfs parameter
> >>>> does not exist anymore in this version.
> >>>>
> >>>>> To enable various configurations, script can be run as following,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Interrupt Only
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>      <script> enable_interrupt
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - SO_BUSYPOLL (no arguments to script)
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>      <script>
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - NAPI threaded busypoll
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>      <script> enable_threaded
> >>>>>      ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If using idpf, the script needs to be run again after launching the
> >>>>> workload just to make sure that the configurations are not reverted. As
> >>>>> idpf reverts some configurations on software reset when AF_XDP program
> >>>>> is attached.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Once configured, the workload is run with various configurations using
> >>>>> following commands. Set period (1/frequency) and delay in usecs to
> >>>>> produce results for packet frequency and application processing delay.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     ## Interrupt Only and SO_BUSYPOLL (inline)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Server
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -D <IP-dest> -S <IP-src> -M <MAC-dst> -m <MAC-src> -p 54321 -h -v
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Client
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -S <IP-src> -D <IP-dest> -m <MAC-src> -M <MAC-dst> -p 54321 \
> >>>>>         -P <Period-usecs> -d <Delay-usecs>  -T -l 1 -v
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     ## SO_BUSYPOLL(done in separate core using recvfrom)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Argument -t spawns a seprate thread and continuously calls recvfrom.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Server
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -D <IP-dest> -S <IP-src> -M <MAC-dst> -m <MAC-src> -p 54321 \
> >>>>>         -h -v -t
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Client
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -S <IP-src> -D <IP-dest> -m <MAC-src> -M <MAC-dst> -p 54321 \
> >>>>>         -P <Period-usecs> -d <Delay-usecs>  -T -l 1 -v -t
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>>     ## NAPI Threaded Busy Poll
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Argument -n skips the recvfrom call as there is no recv kick needed.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Server
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -D <IP-dest> -S <IP-src> -M <MAC-dst> -m <MAC-src> -p 54321 \
> >>>>>         -h -v -n
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Client
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> sudo chrt -f 50 taskset -c 3-5 ./xsk_rr -o 0 -B 400 -i eth0 -4 \
> >>>>>         -S <IP-src> -D <IP-dest> -m <MAC-src> -M <MAC-dst> -p 54321 \
> >>>>>         -P <Period-usecs> -d <Delay-usecs>  -T -l 1 -v -n
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe there's a bug when disabling busy-polled napi threading after
> >>>> an experiment. My system hangs and needs a hard reset.
> >>>>
> >>>>> | Experiment | interrupts | SO_BUSYPOLL | SO_BUSYPOLL(separate) | NAPI threaded |
> >>>>> |---|---|---|---|---|
> >>>>> | 12 Kpkt/s + 0us delay | | | | |
> >>>>> |  | p5: 12700 | p5: 12900 | p5: 13300 | p5: 12800 |
> >>>>> |  | p50: 13100 | p50: 13600 | p50: 14100 | p50: 13000 |
> >>>>> |  | p95: 13200 | p95: 13800 | p95: 14400 | p95: 13000 |
> >>>>> |  | p99: 13200 | p99: 13800 | p99: 14400 | p99: 13000 |
> >>>>> | 32 Kpkt/s + 30us delay | | | | |
> >>>>> |  | p5: 19900 | p5: 16600 | p5: 13100 | p5: 12800 |
> >>>>> |  | p50: 21100 | p50: 17000 | p50: 13700 | p50: 13000 |
> >>>>> |  | p95: 21200 | p95: 17100 | p95: 14000 | p95: 13000 |
> >>>>> |  | p99: 21200 | p99: 17100 | p99: 14000 | p99: 13000 |
> >>>>> | 125 Kpkt/s + 6us delay | | | | |
> >>>>> |  | p5: 14600 | p5: 17100 | p5: 13300 | p5: 12900 |
> >>>>> |  | p50: 15400 | p50: 17400 | p50: 13800 | p50: 13100 |
> >>>>> |  | p95: 15600 | p95: 17600 | p95: 14000 | p95: 13100 |
> >>>>> |  | p99: 15600 | p99: 17600 | p99: 14000 | p99: 13100 |
> >>>>> | 12 Kpkt/s + 78us delay | | | | |
> >>>>> |  | p5: 14100 | p5: 16700 | p5: 13200 | p5: 12600 |
> >>>>> |  | p50: 14300 | p50: 17100 | p50: 13900 | p50: 12800 |
> >>>>> |  | p95: 14300 | p95: 17200 | p95: 14200 | p95: 12800 |
> >>>>> |  | p99: 14300 | p99: 17200 | p99: 14200 | p99: 12800 |
> >>>>> | 25 Kpkt/s + 38us delay | | | | |
> >>>>> |  | p5: 19900 | p5: 16600 | p5: 13000 | p5: 12700 |
> >>>>> |  | p50: 21000 | p50: 17100 | p50: 13800 | p50: 12900 |
> >>>>> |  | p95: 21100 | p95: 17100 | p95: 14100 | p95: 12900 |
> >>>>> |  | p99: 21100 | p99: 17100 | p99: 14100 | p99: 12900 |
> >>>>
> >>>> On my system, routing the irq to same core where xsk_rr runs results in
> >>>> lower latency than routing the irq to a different core. To me that makes
> >>>> sense in a low-rate latency-sensitive scenario where interrupts are not
> >>>> causing much trouble, but the resulting locality might be beneficial. I
> >>>> think you should test this as well.
> >>>>
> >>>> The experiments reported above (except for the first one) are
> >>>> cherry-picking parameter combinations that result in a near-100% load
> >>>> and ignore anything else. Near-100% load is a highly unlikely scenario
> >>>> for a latency-sensitive workload.
> >>>>
> >>>> When combining the above two paragraphs, I believe other interesting
> >>>> setups are missing from the experiments, such as comparing to two pairs
> >>>> of xsk_rr under high load (as mentioned in my previous emails).
> >>> This is to support an existing real workload. We cannot easily modify
> >>> its threading model. The two xsk_rr model would be a different
> >>> workload.
> >>
> >> That's fine, but:
> >>
> >> - In principle I don't think it's a good justification for a kernel
> >> change that an application cannot be rewritten.
> >>
> >> - I believe it is your responsibility to more comprehensively document
> >> the impact of your proposed changes beyond your one particular workload.
> >>
> >> Also, I do believe there's a bug as mentioned before. I can't quite pin
> >> it down, but every time after running a "NAPI threaded" experiment, my
> >> servers enters a funny state and eventually becomes largely unresponsive
> >> without much useful output and needs a hard reset. For example:
> >>
> >> 1) Run "NAPI threaded" experiment
> >> 2) Disabled "threaded" parameter in NAPI config
> >> 3) Run IRQ experiment -> xsk_rr hangs and apparently holds a lock,
> >> because other services stop working successively.
> > I just tried with this scenario and it seems to work fine.
>
> Ok. I've reproduced it more concisely. This is after a fresh reboot:
>
> sudo ethtool -L ens15f1np1 combined 1
>
> sudo net-next/tools/net/ynl/pyynl/cli.py --no-schema --output-json\
>   --spec net-next/Documentation/netlink/specs/netdev.yaml --do napi-set\
>   --json='{"id": 8209, "threaded": "busy-poll-enabled"}'
>
> # ping from another machine to this NIC works
> # napi thread busy at 100%
>
> sudo net-next/tools/net/ynl/pyynl/cli.py --no-schema --output-json\
>   --spec net-next/Documentation/netlink/specs/netdev.yaml --do napi-set\
>   --json='{"id": 8209, "threaded": "disabled"}'
>
> # napi thread gone
> # ping from another machine does not work
> # tcpdump does not show incoming icmp packets
> # but machine still responsive on other NIC
>
> sudo ethtool -L ens15f1np1 combined 12
Ok I have found it. It's related to stopping the kthreads. Will send a
revision out.
>
> # networking hangs on all NICs
> # sudo reboot on console hangs
> # hard reset needed, no useful output
> >> Do you not have this problem?
> > Not Really. Jakub actually fixed a deadlock in napi threaded recently.
> > Maybe you are hitting that? Are you using the latest base-commit that
> > I have in this patch series?
>
> Yep:
> - Ubuntu 24.04.3 LTS system
> - base commit before patches is c3199adbe4ffffc7b6536715e0290d1919a45cd9
> - NIC driver is ice, PCI id 8086:159b.
>
> Let me know, if you need any other information?
>
> Best,
> Martin

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