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Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 13:29:34 +1000
From: Rade Vuckovac <>
Subject: Re: [PHC] Schvrch is broken


Since we have nice PoC (assuming that is proof of concept) there should be
the concept in the first place (or it is assumed to go directly to the
proof / code). Without the concept, below is Bill’s attack analysis

State a,b,c,d (stirred elements)

Hash of above state is a’

Hash is done by one revolve update. Evolve is skipped for clarity.

~ indicates flipped state

case 1 carry = b xor c xor d

case 2 carry = b xor c xor ~d

case 3 carry = b xor ~c xor d

case 4 carry = b xor ~c xor ~d

case 5 carry = ~b xor c xor d

case 6 carry = ~b xor c xor ~d

case 7 carry = ~b xor ~c xor d

case 8 carry = ~b xor ~c xor ~d

a’ = a xor (can be any of the cases above*) carry

hacked version (Bill’s attack)

ha’ = a xor carry(case 1)

claim is that comparing ha’ and a’ the state a, b, c, d can be dismissed or
further checked.

“He then compares his result states to the hash value.  If each group of 64
bits are either equal, or complements of each other, then his guess is
correct with high probability, which he can then verify running the full
algorithm.  Otherwise, it is wrong and he can move onto the next guess.”

The real issue is not that hacked version has some hits. The major problem
is that it will be wrong in some cases as well (as demonstrated above)
missing genuine passwords and possibly running search considerably long
without a result.

*Note that carry brings state-info from the last state only, that number of
cases grows exponentially (state length wise), the period of state grows
exponentially (state length wise) … The other quirks and current attacks
about revolve (and stir) function is presented and analysed in quite few
papers (3) and finally there is MAG submission from eStream with some notes
as well. The links were provided therefore ignorance should not be the
issue any more and actually going through them can save some time for all
of us.

Regards, Rade

On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 3:05 AM, Steve Thomas <> wrote:

> > On September 14, 2014 at 11:06 PM Rade Vuckovac <
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >  Regarding time cost
> >
> >  As it stays (more details is needed perhaps) the statement about
> PHC_Fast
> >does not pass a basic logic.  Since PHS_Fast function is allegedly time
> >constant function it means that the time cost is indifferent factor. In
> other
> >words only input which is varied through the initial search is the
> password.
> >That leads that PHC_Fast function, without even inspecting inner working
> >(treating it as a black box) has multiple outputs for the same input???
> >
> I guess I should of just posted code in my first message:
> This takes about 3 minutes to run. With SSE or AVX it will be faster but
> this is
> a nice PoC. Note that the generation only needs to be done once per m_cost
> and
> once for each t_cost when m_cost is zero.

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