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Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2015 06:15:50 -0800
From: Bill Cox <waywardgeek@...il.com>
To: "discussions@...sword-hashing.net" <discussions@...sword-hashing.net>
Subject: Re: [PHC] Tradeoff cryptanalysis of Catena, Lyra2, and generic
 memory-hard functions

On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Marcos Simplicio <mjunior@...c.usp.br>
wrote:

> Well, maybe we did something wrong in our benchmarks then, because our
> implementations are comparisons done in v2 are faster than Yescrypt with
> minimal parameters for both functions, both with 1 thread and with
> multiple threads...
>

Sorry, my mistake!  I've been preoccupied with moving to California and
changing fields.  I missed the new version of Lyra2.

With Yescrypt becoming simpler, and Lyra2 becoming faster and adding
multi-threading, these algorithms seem to be converging on the right
solution, IMO.

However, these benchmarks refer to yescrypt v0. Are your comments
> referring to v1?


Yes. Sorry.


> I agree that going below 1 round in Lyra2 is not a great option, but I'm
> not sure about the mixing ability of yescrypt's dedicated function when
> compared with Blake2. I mean, for a internal of 1024 bits, 1 round of
> Blake2 ensures that every bit of the internal and external states depend
> on every input bit. Does yescrypt's function do the same? (note: this is
> really a question, not a "provocation" of any sort). Because if it does
> not, then in theory Blake2 could be reduced even more to match
> yescrypt's diffusion capabilities (although personally I would not
> recommend it).


Yescrypt should be run with 1 round when compared to Lyra2 or any algorithm
using one round of Blake2b reduced round.  I think Yescrypt will run faster
when run this way, simply because it does one write in the second loop,
rather than Lyra2's two writes.  However, it's not a large difference, and
Lyra2 does gains some extra TMTO resistance as a result.

Once you get to this level of optimization, the differences matter less.
If you can run enough threads to max out your memory bandwidth, higher
hashing speed wont help.  Otherwise, I'd be upset that TwoCats is no longer
in the running :-)  I still claim having the fastest memory-hard entry for
the single-thread case.


> >
> > - You're notion of "memory*time" cost in this paper is wrong, leading to
> > bizaar and wrong conclusions about Lyra2
>
> I did not check the article in detail, but in Lyra2's v2 document we did
> try to take into account Dmitry's attack (as originally described):
>

Dmitry's claim that he found an 8X reduction in memory*time cost through a
TMTO attack against Lyra2 is wrong, by any sensible definition of
time*memory cost.  That claim is actually why I felt I should respond.


> 1) We got a ~16 times slow down with minimum time_cost = 1 (the minimum
> parameter) for a 1/2 TMTO, even when exploring parallelism (end of
> section 5.1.4); and
>

I like that time_cost can now be set to 1.  I don't see any reason for
running with higher values.  TMTO resistance is good, but not at the
expense of memory*time defense.

Bill

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