lists.openwall.net   lists  /  announce  owl-users  owl-dev  john-users  john-dev  passwdqc-users  yescrypt  popa3d-users  /  oss-security  kernel-hardening  musl  sabotage  tlsify  passwords  /  crypt-dev  xvendor  /  Bugtraq  Full-Disclosure  linux-kernel  linux-netdev  linux-ext4  PHC 
Open Source and information security mailing list archives
 
Hash Suite for Android: free password hash cracker in your pocket
[<prev] [next>] [<thread-prev] [day] [month] [year] [list]
Date: Sat, 9 May 2015 02:12:31 +0300
From: Solar Designer <solar@...nwall.com>
To: discussions@...sword-hashing.net
Subject: Re: [PHC] GPU benchmarks: Lyra2+yescrypt (was: Another PHC candidates "mechanical" tests (ROUND2))

On Fri, May 08, 2015 at 07:08:18PM -0300, Marcos Simplicio wrote:
> I also discussed that in another thread: our numbers are way closer to
> those obtained by Milan than yours are (again, this does not mean any of
> them are wrong, since the platforms are different). Hence, while you
> have all the right to take our numbers with skepticism, they are not as
> strange as you suggested.

Yes.  I now primarily blame mmap()/munmap().

> Anyway, the CPU and GPU tests are independent, so the comparisons
> suggested in the third column of our figures can be updated simply by
> dividing new/our CPU numbers by new/our GPU numbers for any algorithm
> having a GPU implementation.

Right.

> > I think you actually used a different metric on CPU, per
> > readme_attacks.txt:
> > 
> > "The CPU benchmarks focused in legitm usage of the kdfs.
> > 
> >     To obtain the medium execution time:
> >     - We executed "n" times each derivation;
> >     - With the parameters seted accordingly with parallelism and memory
> > usage desired."
> > 
> > While this would make sense for KDF use at large m_cost, it doesn't for
> > password hashing use at low m_cost.  You should use a throughput figure
> > for CPU, just like you do for GPU.
> 
> Like Milan Broz's tests, I imagine, which makes perfect sense. We will
> use the exact same methodology for p=1 (as done already) to 12.

Yes, as long as by p you mean not yescrypt's p, but parallelism added
external to yescrypt, like I believe Milan did for Figure 10.

> > I'd make sense to include bcrypt, too.  Especially if you claim that
> > your GPU outperforms CPU at yescrypt despite of pwxform's rapid random
> > lookups, it becomes extremely relevant that you show the same for
> > bcrypt, because yescrypt-simd's rapid random lookups are on par with
> > bcrypt's when both are run defensively on a modern x86 CPU.
> 
> That makes sense, and can be added to our TODO list and eventual
> academic publication (thank you for the advice!).

I'd be interested in your results (and you're welcome!)

> >> The only situation in which we got Lyra2 running faster on our GPU than
> >> on our CPU was for p=1 and 8 threads per warp (for 256KB).
> > 
> > You mean when you used unoptimal settings on GPU and didn't fully use
> > the CPU?  This doesn't count, for either or both of these reasons.
> 
> It is actually:
> 
> 1) Optimal settings for GPU: the setting with highest throughput

OK, I misunderstood you.

> 2) One possible setting for CPU: it corresponds to a a constrained
> device that cannot afford GiBs of memory in their KDF operation, or to
> lightly loaded server (e.g., it cannot afford to use a lot of memory
> because it was designed for peak usage much higher than the current one,
> or because other tasks consume a lot of memory and, thus, the
> authentication processes should not get too much memory).

I agree about the memory, but I disagree that the server wouldn't run
max number of p=1 instances at once if there's enough load.  And if the
server is lightly loaded (as you say), then it's not a scenario that
limits the admin's choice of m_cost and t_cost, so irrelevant to us.
Also, I think CPU vs. GPU comparisons should be per chip, and not e.g.
1 core vs. 1 chip.

> So, I would say it does count, but also that there is also a wider
> picture that would be interesting to explore (="highly loaded server"),
> much like done in Milan Broz's Figure 10.

I think this wider picture is the primary or even the only relevant case
for this range of m_cost.

Indeed, a server will usually not be highly loaded, but the cost
settings are determined by server capacity at max load.

> > I am sorry that my messages might sound dismissive.  Once again, I
> > appreciate your work on this a lot, and I think you got very close to
> > producing valuable results here.
> 
> I respectfully disagree that we have no valuable results yet, for the
> reasons mentioned above and in the previous e-mail. However, we do
> prefer constructive criticism (as you provided!) to plain acceptance,
> since this will help to improve this study.

Given the discussion so far, I am starting to see some value in your
results.  It is just not apparent.  The biggest help so far is making me
benchmark just how much slower mmap()/munmap() are than malloc()/free()
when repeatedly invoked from the same process.  Now this sounds obvious,
but without this discussion maybe I wouldn't realize that Milan's
results are also badly impacted by this.  I previously thought this
overhead would be roughly the same for all schemes, but it actually
varies a lot between implementations.

> Hence, there is absolutely no need to apologize: quite the opposite,
> even though we do not agree with every point you raised, we are very
> thankful for the feedback! It will probably save us a lot of work
> responding to peer reviewers in the future :)

I appreciate how you're responding to feedback, on this and on other
occasions.  Thank you!

Alexander

Powered by blists - more mailing lists