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Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 08:20:56 -0700
From: Bill Cox <>
To: "" <>
Cc: Dmitry Khovratovich <>, Alex Biryukov - UNI <>
Subject: Re: [PHC] Argon2 improvement thread

On Fri, Jul 24, 2015 at 7:00 AM, Dmitry Khovratovich <
> wrote:

> Dear community,
> So far we support most of the API and minor corrections to the scheme that
> do not change its functionality and do not make it more complex.
> Complexity, as we see it, is one of the greatest enemies of security.
> =============MAXFORM============
> In this case, I think it is fortunate that Yescrypt made it as a
recommended solution for situations requiring the defenses it has to
offer.  I think this will be most use cases.

> =========================Hybrid scheme===
> It has been proposed to add another version of Argon2, which is a
> combination of Argon2d and Argon2i. In more details, the first half (or so)
> of the memory should be filled with data-independent addressing, and the
> rest with data-dependent addressing. The motivation is to reduce the
> side-channel leakage for 1-pass Argon2d  at the cost of reduced tradeoff
> resilience and the overall latency. The drawback of this proposal is
> threefold: 1) yet another primitive 2) the side-channel leakage is reduced
> but not removed, which still restricts the use case. 3) the tradeoff
> becomes more favourable to the attacker.

I agree with 1) and 2), but not 3).  Against brute-force off-line guessing,
a hybrid architecture is just as strong as a purely password-dependent one.

> Clearly, such update would make sense only for 1- or 2-pass Argon2d, since
> for 3 passes and more Argon2i comes into play.

I agree, but I also feel the use-cases for more than 1 pass are as rare as
the use cases for Argon2i.  Embedded in a TPM chip, Argon2i could help
protect secrets stored in the device.  This is the best use case that comes
to mind.

> We think that the drawbacks currently outweigh the positive effect, in
> particular we are concerned of the fact that the scheme is weaker than both
> existing variants in some scenarios. Still, it can be possible to include
> it as a possible extension, though not recommended by the designers but
> available to those who desperately want such a scheme.

In what scenario would a hybrid be weaker than Argon2d?

In any case, not merging Argon2d/Argon2i with a new parameter is fine.
This is a non-critical featuer, IMO.


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