Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.56.0309112321140.24497@panix2.panix.com>
From: jays at panix.com (Jay Sulzberger)
Subject: Computer Sabotage by Microsoft


On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, Rick Kingslan wrote:

> Jay,
>
> All good points.  You possibly misunderstand - I'm not in any way arguing
> the absurdity.  That, it is - and I fully concur and concede that point.
> However, unless one is independently wealthy with plenty of reserves, I
> seriously question taking on MS and the EULAs over a ~$200.00US video
> console.
>
> THAT is absurd.....

I think it is worth doing, else their EVIL PLOTS creep ahead.

>
> However, I do think that you CAN sell me a car that only turns left on
> Sundays IF I am stupid enough to READ the contract and SIGN the same -
> giving up my right to litigation over a 'feature' that occurs because of
> 'human error' in the design and build process.  Or, possibly it's a feature
> that other customers asked for and received because they promised to by
> thousands of those cars for stock car racing on Sunday nights.
>
> Regardless, it was in the contract....  If you don't read, you get what you
> pay for.  Caveat Emptor....
>
> -rtk

Sure.  I think we agree here.

For what lengths Microsoft and, in this case, Toshiba, will go in
assaulting the law, see

http://windowsrefund.net

and follow the link to the transcript of Adam Kosmin's first case against
Toshiba, to get his refund.  A high Toshiba executive, in charge of dealing
with Microsoft, testifies that he never heard of the refund clause of the
Microsoft EULA.  This is after he was coming down to the court house for
months with Toshiba's lawyer, in a case dealing solely with the refund
clause ;)

oo--JS.


>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Sulzberger [mailto:jays@...ix.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 10:07 PM
> To: Rick Kingslan
> Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com; Jay Sulzberger
> Subject: RE: [Full-Disclosure] Computer Sabotage by Microsoft
>
>
>
> On Thu, 11 Sep 2003, Rick Kingslan wrote:
>
> >  "So I want my money back. I payed for a black box with specific
> > features the font hack was one of the features. If they kill this
> > feature, they kill my property and have to pay for it."
> >
> > Uhhhh.... Yeah.  That's gonna happen.  I suggest not holding your
> > breath while you wait, however.
> >
> > -rtk
>
> No.  Likely the case would be won in many jurisdictions.  There is a law of
> buying and selling, and such absurd denials of most of this body of law as
> the Microsoft EULAs will not stand.  But if we do not fight, Microsoft might
> win some stuff here.  I recommend fighting.
>
> Example: I cannot sell you a car with the proviso that you make no left
> turns on Sundays.  Microsoft EULAs are often more absurd than this.  Indeed
> the one we are discussing is worse: it says that you must accept invasion of
> your computer and sabotage of the software.  Of course you do not have to
> accept this EULA.  You bought a piece of hardware and now you are running it
> in your house.  Microsoft gets to say nothing about what you do with your
> bought and paid for computer in the privacy of your house.
>
> oo--JS.
>
>
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com
> > [mailto:full-disclosure-admin@...ts.netsys.com] On Behalf Of Stefan
> > Esser
> > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 3:59 PM
> > To: Rainer Gerhards
> > Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.netsys.com
> > Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Computer Sabotage by Microsoft
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > > I can understand you frustration of no linux & cracked games
> > > anymore, but "written permission"... Well, well...
> >
> > You misunderstand me completely beside the fact that you accuse me of
> > creating copies of games. I am the person who cracked the xbox open
> > via the font hack and I am not frustrated at all, because I can revert
> > the illegal changes of MS to MY hardware anytime. It is just that MS
> > has no fucking right to autoupdate my box. No matter if I am a LIVE
> > customer or not. They can terminate my license and pay me my money
> > back if the update is really needed, which it is not.
> >
> > > As you said "it *finally* happened" ;) If you purchase that blackbox
> > > design, you get what you pay for. Microsoft never said it did these
> > > things that you try to do. While there are good points to blame
> > > them, I think this time it is not. It is simply doing what it was
> supposed to...
> >
> > There is NOT a single word in the whole EULA and documentation of the
> > XBOX that it will not execute nonsigned software. I found a way to
> > work around this defect. Microsoft destroyed that way, they killed one
> > of the features (again... nowhere in the docu is written that this is
> > NOT one of the
> > features) So I want my money back. I payed for a black box with
> > specific features the font hack was one of the features. If they kill
> > this feature, they kill my property and have to pay for it.
> >
> > Yours,
> > Stefan Esser
> >
> > --
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Stefan Esser                                        s.esser@...atters.de
> >  e-matters Security                         http://security.e-matters.de/
> >
> >  GPG-Key                gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-key 0xCF6CAE69
> >  Key fingerprint       B418 B290 ACC0 C8E5 8292  8B72 D6B0 7704 CF6C AE69
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >  Did I help you? Consider a gift:            http://wishlist.suspekt.org/
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> > Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
> > Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
> >
>
>

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