Message-ID: <875703.31716.qm@web32710.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 09:15:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iggy E <iggy_e@...oo.com>
To: Crispin Cowan <crispin@...ell.com>
Cc: full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk, bugtraq@...urityfocus.com,
	"pdp \(architect\)" <pdp.gnucitizen@...glemail.com>,
	Gadi Evron <ge@...uxbox.org>, Casper.Dik@....COM
Subject: Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows


Hi Crispin,

I agree with almost everything you say until here:
"I continue to dismiss the requirement that an 0day be found
maliciously exploiting machines, because that requires inferring
intent."

IMO, everybody in this thread is taking this from an
inside-to-outside approach, whereas a '0day' is the opposite.

If I'm on a CERT team for a corporation then I don't give a flying F
if somebody's concocted a cool exploit for a vulnerability that
hasn't been patched; and moreover, I don't know about it.

I only care if there's malicious code running around in the real
world doing damage that has no patch for the vulnerability. That's
when I have to take some action or be completely helpless and in my
mind that's the only time I consider a '0day' to have any relevance.

Let me repeat: if it's a theoretical exploit, or even if it's hit
100,000 machines but has not been reported and is not "being in the
wild", then it has no relevance to me BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THAT IT
EXISTS and therefore to me it is not 0day.

Only through normal channels doing my daily CERT work (dCERT, FrSIRT,
Secunia, etc.) if I see an exploit on an unpatched vulnerability
doing real damage is when I would ever consider the term '0day'.

Very respectfully,
Ignacio



--- Crispin Cowan <crispin@...ell.com> wrote:

> Casper.Dik@....COM wrote:
> >> But then there is the important concept of the "private 0day", a
> new
> >> vulnerability that a malicious person has but has not used yet.
> >>     
> > But the point is there is no such thing as a 0day
> *vulnerability"; there's
> > a 0day exploit, an exploit in the wild before the vulnerability
> id
> > discovered.
> >   
> An excellent point. Sorry I overlooked that. Exploit development
> today
> is so fast that I tend to equate knowledge of a vulnerability with
> "...
> and can have an exploit by tomorrow afternoon."
> 
> >> Rather, I just treat "0day" as a synonym for "new vulnerability"
> and
> >> don't give a hoot about the alleged intentions of whoever
> discovered it.
> >> What makes it an "0" day is that whoever is announcing it is
> first to
> >> announce it in public. You could only invalidate the 0day claim
> by
> >> showing that the same vulnerability had previously been
> disclosed by
> >> someone else.
> >>     
> > The point is that it is not supposed to be moniker for
> vulnerabilities;
> > it's a moniker for exploits.  In any other context it does not
> make sense.
> >
> > Specifically considering that "0-day exploit" is the only
> definition which
> > holds meaning with respect to a particular exploit over time. 
> "An exploit
> > which existed before the vulnerability was publicly known".
> >   
> Yes, you are right. So "0day" is a class of exploits. Specifically,
> it
> is the class of exploits that are developed before the first
> available
> patch for the vulnerability in question.
> 
> But that race condition of whether the patch or the exploit is
> partially
> ordered, because they could be developed independently. There is
> the
> special case where the person who first discovered the
> vulnerability
> also develops either a patch or an exploit, in which case it is
> totally
> ordered. But in the general case where one person discovers the
> vulnerability, and two other people independently develop an
> exploit and
> a patch, you can't tell who finished first. All you can do is
> detect who
> published first.
> 
> So fair enough, an "0day exploit" is one that appears in public
> before
> the associated patch is published.
> 
> A "private 0day exploit" (the case I was concerned with) would be
> where
> someone develops an exploit, but does not deploy or publish it,
> holding
> it in reserve to attack others at the time of their choosing.
> Presumably
> if such a person wanted to keep it for very long, they would have
> to
> base it on a vulnerability that they themselves discovered, and did
> not
> publish.
> 
> I continue to dismiss the requirement that an 0day be found
> maliciously
> exploiting machines, because that requires inferring intent. IMHO,
> a POC
> exploit first posted to Bugtraq ahead of the patch counts as an
> 0day
> exploit, unless it has been so thoroughly obfuscated that the
> "proof"
> part of "proof of concept" is itself BS.
> 
> Crispin
> 
> -- 
> Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.              
> http://crispincowan.com/~crispin/
> Director of Software Engineering   http://novell.com
> 	AppArmor Chat: irc.oftc.net/#apparmor
> 
> 



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