Message-ID: <46F92F57.60209@brvenik.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 11:55:03 -0400
From: Jason <security@...enik.com>
To: "J. Oquendo" <sil@...iltrated.net>
Cc: Chad Perrin <perrin@...theon.com>,
	"pdp \(architect\)" <pdp.gnucitizen@...glemail.com>,
	Gadi Evron <ge@...uxbox.org>, Casper.Dik@....COM,
	full-disclosure@...ts.grok.org.uk, Crispin Cowan <crispin@...ell.com>
Subject: Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows



J. Oquendo wrote:
> Jason wrote:
> 
>> You present a valid position but fall short of seeing the whole picture.
> 
>> As an attacker, nation state or otherwise, my goal being to cripple
>> communications, 0day is the way to go. Resource exhaustion takes
>> resources, something the 0day can deprive the enemy of.
> 
> Counterpoint... You're trying to shoot me down with 0day crap:
> 
> You --> 0day attack --> My Infrastructure
> 
> Me --> Botnet --> Your infrastructure

Perhaps, if you can catch me everywhere I can be. The problem is that my
attacks, using my 0day, are run from your infrastructure by my forward
teams, long entrenched in your society.

If I want to knock out your infrastructure to render it unusable I'm
going to do it in a way that I can either

- control when and how it goes down and makes it resistant to restore
efforts (Exploiting vulns to gain control )

- destroy it entirely causing you to expend massive resources to rebuild it

> 
> Never having to consume any resources other than a point and click shoot
> em up attack, I necessarily won't even have to use my own resources. So
> shoot away as your network becomes saturated.
> 
>> Knocking out infrastructure with attacks is a far more effective
>> strategy. You can control it's timing, launch it with minimal resources,
>> from anywhere, coordinate it, and be gone before it can be thwarted. The
>> botnet would only serve as cover while the real attack happens.
> 
> In a strategic war, most countries aim to eliminate supply points and
> mission critical infrastructure as quickly as possible. In a
> cyberwarfare situation me personally, I would aim to 1) disrupt/stop via
> a coordinated attack whether its via a botnet or something perhaps along
> the lines of a physical cut to a nation's fiber lines.
> 
> 0day would only serve me afterwards to perhaps maintain covert states of
> communication. Maybe inject disinformation through crapaganda. Imagine
> an enemies entire website infrastructure showing tailored news... Would
> truly serve a purpose AFTER the attack not during.

You don't start that after the fact, you start it before, maintain it
during, and follow through victory.

> 
>> I am more inclined to believe that botnets in use today really only
>> serve as cover, thuggish retribution, and extortion tools, not as
>> effective tools of warfare. No real warfare threat would risk exposing
>> themselves through the use of or construction of a botnet.
>>
> 
> Luckily for most companies and government, botnets aren't being used for
> their full potential. And I don't mean potential as in they're a good
> thing. I could think up a dozen cyberware scenarios in minutes that
> would cripple countries and businesses. I believe countries, providers
> and governments should at some point get the picture and perhaps create
> guidelines to curtail the potential for havoc - imagine hospitals being
> attacked and mission critical life saving technologies taken offline.
> 
> 

The botnet still only serves as cover for this activity. It is a tool,
like the rest, but not a primary weapon for use in active wide scale
infrastructure dos. Taking out infrastructure on a wide scale using
resource exhaustion requires too much resource.

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